www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Segregation Of The Sexes In Church

Dear Carole,

Remembering back, when the kids were infants and toddlers, it was always helpful to have daddy along side me to hold them when they started getting wiggly in my arms...besides, he was also stronger and taller, so they saw more of what was going on, or iconography, etc., in his arms than they could see from my 5'4" vantage point!

(We either have pews or rows of chairs, so it is not customary in our larger churches to allow the small children to run around.)

Alice

Alice -- my wife would certainly be very jealous! Although (now that I think of it) my boys did start serving at a very young age in the altar. "Sure -- they're mature enough," their mother assured me. :-)

Well someone just PM'd me to tell me that it was done in Spain and Portugal at least into the 1950s, and that they also gave out blessed bread there after Mass.

Alexis

Not true. We 'Latins' (I mean this in the sense of Spanish, Italians, French, Portuguese, etc.) had this as well, but it did not last. There are several old Italian Renaissance paintings depicting Mass with the men on the Epistle-side and the women on the Gospel-side of the church. I believe that the Rumanians (also 'Latins') still retain this, granted they follow the Byzantine Rite.

As for the Polish retaining it, it has always seemed to me that the Poles and the Germans have retained many wonderful old traditions whereas many of the 'Latins' and Anglo-Saxons have sadly done away with them. I was sad when the Poland voted to join the EU as this always brings 'Westernization' (in the worst sense of the word).

I was in ROCOR for many years and never saw this as a common custom. I know of some individuals who did it at times but never a parish that you would walk in and find a clear segregation. This was just my experience in the SE.

I don't care for the tradition either Carole. I had my first 3 children in 36 mo and I preferred the freedom to be on whichever side of the church was most convenient whether that was access to the choir or the bathroom where I had a nice bench to sit on to nurse. I can't imagine if my husband had left me off on one side to deal with all our children and stood over on the right. Or since our first 3 were boys I guess I could have sent all 3 of them over to the right with him.

My aunt tells me that it was only recently in their parish that men and women were mixed up. no pun intended.

What I can't understand is how churches will have women's prayers groups, bible readings, and men's groups - sort of an attempt to *group* them, but consider male/female segregation in church sexist.

Ed

I can remember a "men's" side and a "women's" side as a youth. I still use the terms at times. The children would all sit in front, which makes a lot of sense because when I didn't sit up front I couldn't see over people's heads.

If you look at any old First Communion pictures while the children are seated you will see the division. There's no way any self respecting boy would get caught on the "girls" side! (I'd use a big ol' smiley face but I haven't figured out how to do it.)

I also remember that if any boys got out of line there would also be some old guy there happy to straighten them out. And you could guarantee that if someone wasn't attentive his father would give him some pretty good instructions when they got home.

If families had infants they would stay at home; I don't remember babies in church.

One thing that appears to be dying out is the venerable tradition of the roving babushka with the cane. You know, the one that keeps an eye on everything, from a candle burning too low, to someone who has their hands folded behind their back. It seems like the new generation of women are not metamorphing into gnarly old babushki with no teeth and leather skin, who can put Barry Bonds to shame with a cane swing. Future generations might never know of the wonders associated with them! From hard candy in the black plastic pocketbook, left over from the Truman Administration, that reeks of lilac perfume, to the pain of a cane placed on the top of your foot and leaned on when she discovers you leaning against the wall. Federal money MUST be appropriated to find a way to prevent the loss of this venerable institution, and women should be encouraged to become apprentices to these babushki while there still are a few left to pass on the tradition!

Alexandr

I'm a little confused by something here. If segregation of the sexes was a regular feature of the Orthodox Church until the latter part of the 20th century, why does Bishop Ware in his book The Orthodox Church, mention the faithful being free to move about the church as they please during worship ?

Lawrence,

It is still a regular feature of the Orthodox Church in some Traditions. There is no hard and fast rule, with armed guards preventing someone from crossing over to the other side. One is still free to walk through the "women's" side to light a candle or whatever, just as there is often a free flow of children between both sides. It is just the norm that most women would not WANT to stand with the men and vice versa.

Alexandr

That reminds me of Gertie, the old lady who kinda ran the show at my old Church. Mind you this church was a bar and then was converted and consecrated. The church had a drop ceiling, but it still had an Altar Rail and a Gothic Altar (yes it was bizarre) Father Joe Sense never turned on the heat or the air conditioning (I now wonder if the Church ever had any.)

Anyway, for the first 7-8 years of my life I thought Gertie was Fr. Sense's wife. She used to push her shopping cart (you read that right) with her little mongrel wrapped up in a blanket up and down the aisles and she would yell and whack you if you had your feet on the kneelers!

She played the organ and sang off key for our 20 minute Masses. When she sang the little mutt would howl!

Alexandr,

They probably still exist and are probably still thriving in Russia! However, their time will come soon, too, when they will also probably become a bittersweet memory of simpler people and simpler times...

The audacity your babushki display reminds me of a story of a black clad yiayia on an Olympic Airlines flight to Greece. My son was a four month old infant at the time, and he was also a thumb sucker. Our pediatrician said that since he was a thumb sucker anyway, it would be very good to make sure that he did just that upon take off of the flight in order to prevent air pressure in his eardrums.

Well, the flight started taking off, and baby was happily sucking his thumb in his little infant seat when a stranger's burly hand comes from behind our row and yanks his thumb right out of his mouth!!! At first I looked at this yiayia in sheer disbelief, and granted I was fairly young and looked even younger than I was, but I was horrified at her audacity!

She instantly qualified her action to me in a bossy tone in Greek that 'thumb sucking is not good for an infant', to which I replied, 'the doctor says it is good for him to do right now'...and well-talk about a clash of cultures and generations! *eek* She looked at me as if *I* was the strange one!!!

So, while their breed may bring bittersweet memories, just remember that these bossy women may be some unlucky man or woman's mother in law!!! --or even worse, someone's wife!!! LOL!

Alice

I personally don't consider it sexist at all. I just consider it highly impractical when dealing with small children.

Oh, I have met many of those babushki! They were always convinced that no matter what the weather or what my child was wearing I did not have them bundled up in enough clothing. LOL There was one sweet and very tiny elderly Yiayia at my in laws parish who made it a point to outrun everyone else to be first in line for communion. She was tiny and had a cane but she could move quite fast!