www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West East and West: Different Religions?

Dear Byzantophile,

Any UGC prayerbook by the Basilians will ignore anything that Pat. Joseph would have done, period. Officially, it is the "Conception of St Anne." But the Basilians and Redemptorists appear to be a "church within a church" and Pat. Lubomyr has at least one article on his Ukrainian website that discusses this problem we have had for a long time. So the fact that what you say is true, does not mean that that is the way things should be according to our hierarchy and Synod.

Also, there are Orthodox Churches dedicated to the "Conception of St Anne" and the icon of this feast in Orthodoxy resembles the image of the Miraculous Medal, as the OCA website indicates.

As for the Filioque, I understand that Rome approves of it

My point is simply the theology that underpins the Filioque that reflects Latin theological a priori and is distinct from the East.

But the fact is that the creed did not have the Filioque originally, this was added unilaterally later on, and that the Filioque should NOT be in a creed intended to express the faith of the Universal Church.

And Florence did not decree the use of the Filioque for the East anyway.

Alex

I wonder about the Filioque clause... The Latin Church has creed formulations other than the Nicea-Constantinopel formulation. Like Athanasian creed, the Apostles creed. Why don't we settle the Nicea-Constantinople Creed to be the same level as the Apostles creed while using the one without Filioque as a universal one?

Very interesting. I had no idea that the Basilians were considered such rebels! LOL. I've always understood them to represent mainstream Ukrainian Catholicism.


I'm curious, are there any Greek Catholic churches with this dedication?


So my argument then would be this: Since the Eastern and Western Church have different theologies and understandings of the matter it is perfectly acceptable for Romans to keep the filioque and for the Byzantines to leave it out while still agreeing on the essentials of the faith and respecting the belief of the other party.

Unless I'm mistaken, this was what was said at the Council of Florence.

Personally, I don't care. To me the issue is rather pedantic. But I will defend the right of the West to use it, seeing as the arguments against this put into question the status of the relevant councils.

Dear Byzantophile,

Just a note to thank you on your excellent analytical skills! You are a serious poster with whom it is a pleasure to correspond!

As for the Basilians - they would be rebels depending on which perspective one adheres to. There were those who thought that Pat. Josef was the rebel. And I'm not sure what the status of the Basilians is today. Their website in Canada seems to be ambiguous on the question of just how "monastic" they really are. But their parishes tend to be quite Latinized and they seem to like it that way. A new Basilian priest in my in-laws' parish didn't mind including St Gregory Palamas in the bulletin for the Second Sunday of the Great Fast. But he also insists on services throughout October for Our Lady of the Rosary.

And you should have seen the look on the parishioners' faces when he wanted to introduce some organ/guitar music as a prelude to the DIvine Liturgy! One couple remained in the church hall and refused to enter the Church while the music was going on (in fact, the music never came on due to opposition from the parish).

I don't think one would find any UGCC parishes dedicated to the Conception of St Anne, but to the "Immaculate Conception."

The thing is that the Immaculate Conception was a great devotion of Ruthenian Orthodox (Belarusyns and Ukies) including St Dmitri of Rostov. There were Orthodox brotherhoods dedicated to the Immaculate Conception in the Kyivan Metropolia who actually took the bloody vow to defend to the death the IC etc. They would have formally kept the feast as the "Conception of St Anne" - but it was understood that this was a holy Conception and the like.

Certainly, no one in the East has a problem with the Filioque as a theological opinion and EO Christians may accept it as such too. If the Filioque were dropped from the Nicene Creed, in other words, return to the original version of the Creed - things would be better.

Alex

Interesting bit of information to add to Alex's comments

Last year I was in Lourdes in December [ yes a dental visit ] and to my surprise the SSMI [ Sister Servants of Mary Immaculate ] nuns there celebrate the renewal of their Vows on the feast day of their order .
This is actually on the 9th December - the Conception os St Anne.

Dear Anhelyna,

There is just no limit to class!

And I mean you too!

Alex

Many thanks for the compliment. I am enjoying this exchange as well.

I'm going to try to reply before the Thanksgiving Day "food coma" sets in. LOL.


From what I gather, they have not been monastic for a very long time. My Catholic Encyclop�dic Dictionary from 1942 states that the Basilians of St. Josaphat are more akin to Canons Regular than to Monks. From what I have seen on their website in Ukraine, they do retain many Latinizations as well.


Ugh!!! And just when we are starting to get rid of this kind of stuff in the Latin Rite. I'd have refused to go into the church as well! The Ukrainian Catholic parish near me has wonderful Ukrainian hymns sung a capella after the Liturgy. Perhaps a parish with an experienced choir could even have one of those beautiful Bortnyansky concertos sung after Mass. If I'm not mistaken, Bortnyansky was Ukrainian.


So, as far as Catholics are concerned, this seems to be merely semantics.


As an expression of the universal faith, if this was decided at another �cumenical council or by the Holy Father we would have to accept it. But it was an �cumenical council that inserted and would take nothing less than another one (or the Holy Father speaking infallibly) to remove it.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06073a.htm

I wouldn't be opposed to eliminating it, but it would just be odd to have it excised from the Credo at Mass. It's been with us Latins for over 600 years. In addition, every musical seeting for the Mass would have to be re-written from Gregorian Chant to Palestrina to Gabrielli to Mozart to Schubert to Dvorak.

Dear Byzantophile,

Thank you. Could you fill in my woeful ignorance and explain what "Canons Regular" are? How would they differ from monastics?

Alex

Essentially Canons Regular are in between Monks and Friars. They recited the Divine Office in common, follow a rule, take vows, and there is a focus on the contemplative monastic lifestyle while still working "out in the world". In addition Canons Regular are all ordained, whereas this is not always the case with Monks. There is also an emphasis on a liturgical life.

Absolutely true.

There are catholic churches which have not been involved in the politics of consolidating all power and authority to themselves.

What is your church?

-ray

Dear Byzantophile,

It would definitely appear that our Basilians are Canons Regular!

The only real monastics we have are the Studites.

Cheers,

Alex

Perhaps Florence resolved the flioque for the Latins attending the Council, certainly not to the satisfaction of St. Mark of Ephesus.

I've noticed this problem as well, and others have mentioned it from time to time.

One solution might be to have a read-only thread with a list of FAQs for newcomers, along with selected replies taken from the various postings by some of our respected and highly knowledgeable members.

Members might even suggest which postings they would like to see included.

Anyone like the idea?


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Dear Father Deacon,

Perhaps when newcomers are also converts the forum can put them in an altogether special place? Anyone like THAT idea?

Alex

Dear John Zonaras,

Yassous!

Did you know there was a Ukrainian Catholic priest who wanted to start a church brotherhood in honour of St Mark of Ephesus? And I know three RC priests who have his icon up on their walls and invoke him.

Alex