www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Vatican Takes Step to Reabsorb Orthodox Church

http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?q=4436.2695.0.0


The Vatican has drafted a joint document with Orthodox Church leaders declaring that the pope has primacy over all Catholic and Orthodox bishops. The agreement was reached by a joint international commission in Revenna, Italy, on October 13 and released by the Vatican on Thursday.

The document specifically declares that the pope held the highest position in the unified church before the Great Schism in 1054, and that the bishop of Rome was the protos, or first, among the patriarchs, including those of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem.

That acknowledgment could pave the way for eventual reunification of the two churches�under the pope�s rule.

Cardinal Water Kasper, head of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, called discussions of the pope�s power in the early Catholic Church the �real breakthrough� of the document.

�This document is a modest first step and as such one of hope,� he told Vatican Radio. �But we must not exaggerate its importance. This will not be easy. The road is very long and difficult.�

The Orthodox Church split from Catholicism in 1054, largely because of disagreements over the authority of the pope. Its 220 million members fall under the authority of autonomous national churches, rather than a universal ruler, the way 1.1 billion Roman Catholics do.

Although the two sides agreed on the primacy of the pre-1054 pope, they still disagree on what his authority entailed in terms of the power he could exercise. The early popes had much less consolidated and centralized power than their second-millennium counterparts have wielded. This will make for thornier deliberations, particularly when the dogma of papal infallibility, which the Catholic Church developed after the split and formally defined in 1870, is discussed. However, in the interest of ecumenicism, the commission has called for the role of the pope to be studied in greater depth.

Pope Benedict xvi has called regaining the Orthodox Church a priority of his administration. In May last year, a senior Russian Orthodox official delivered a message from Patriarch Alexiy ii to Benedict, and Vatican officials said they were working toward a meeting between the two. The same month, 50 Roman Catholic and Russian Orthodox officials held a meeting in Vienna.

In November last year, the pope met in Istanbul with Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, who rules the Turkish Orthodox Church, but is considered the spiritual head of Orthodoxy.

Benedict is literally making a career out of re-acquiring Catholicism�s daughter churches. However, no matter what is on the table for discussion, one dogma will remain the same: Everybody obeys the pope.

As a result of these ecumenical maneuverings�resulting in Orthodox, Anglican and Protestant daughters being welded back into the universal church�look for papal authority not to weaken but to ultimately increase even further than it has already.


Alexandr

The source of that article, the Philadelphia Church of God - wasn't that the group that formed to perpetuate Herbert Armstrong's theology (incl. the Roman Catholic Church as the Whore of Babylon) after the WWCoG repudiated those views?

Unless they have somewhat more detailed information than they provide, I'd hesitate to simply trust their "take" on the Ravenna meeting. From the same source, earlier this year:

"Herbert W. Armstrong said it was coming, and it is almost here. Church unity will soon move from being a prophecy to a reality. But just as surely as his warning of a prophesied church unity and the emergence of a beast power are coming to pass, so will his announcement of the wonderful Kingdom of God also come to pass. That kingdom will destroy all others. Then, we will have true unity�God�s way!"

They KNOW that the Popes are trying to seize world power, so it's hardly fair to assume they're very objective about it. *shrug*

Jeff

Could be, I really don't know, as I don't follow the innumerable Protestant sects. I am just posting the responses to the affair at Ravenna by the different American medias as I come across them. Amazing how they are all taking a different slant on it. This one is probably most in agreement with the opinion of most of the Orthodox laity and clergy that I communicate with.

Alexandr

Looks like the leadership of the WWCoG has a connection with the BCC ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_W._Tkach

Hmmm... while I could applaud him (were he still alive) for leading a wildly heretical sect back into ordinary Protestant heresy, it would likely be better if he had kept the Russian Orthodox faith of his childhood in the 1930's. Other than being Rusyn / Carpatho-Russian, I don't see much connection with the Byzantine Catholic Church. I would actually be more interested in his take on the Ravenna meeting than Herbert Armstrong's. On the other hand, they've both been dead for years.

Jeff

..."leading a wildly heretical sect back into ordinary Protestant heresy"...

Hahaha. Nice wordage.

Alexis

Dear Podvizhnik,


The topic of this thread
is interesting. Since the Vatican could hardly re-absorb something which it had not previously absorbed, whoever wrote that topic title is conceding a good deal more than the Ravenna document does.

Suggestion: the secular media are not reliable commentators on ecclesiastical documents, and still less are the rantings and ravings of those who have no real interest in either Catholicism or Orthodoxy.

Second suggestion: open your trusty Menaion to the February volume and read the first few stichera at Great Vespers honoring Saint Leo of Rome.

Fr. Serge

I think the article you quoted is quite approximate and incorrect

The Ravenna document can be found here [vatican.va] .

The best is to read directly this document, without other denominations filter.

Such a document includes many statements, particularly about the Ecumenical Councils, quite different from the standard catholic teaching.

If I could guess a judgment, the Ravenna document is:
- 80% pro Orthodox
- 20% pro Catholic

The Ravenna document is a very good document. I think though that its worth will utlimately be shown in what happens when the folks on the commission get together to discuss Petrine primacy and Rome.

Joe

"Suggestion: the secular media are not reliable commentators on ecclesiastical documents, and still less are the rantings and ravings of those who have no real interest in either Catholicism or Orthodoxy."

Exactly! Some were throwing around ridiculous headlines over Pope Benedict's trip to America. The Times said he is "Avoiding Boston", the Chicago Tribune asked "Why not Chicago?" I don't remember a time when secular media has accurately portrayed the intentions of or explained theological statements issued from the Vatican.

Terry

Batko, Batko, ya znaiyu! I did not pen these articles, I am only posting them to see how misconstrued the so called free press is about anything related to the Church. I listened to the talk at the social after liturgy yesterday, and most people were convinced that Rome is out to "take us over", because that is what the western press has been publishing.

As to Sviati Lev Veliki, I wrote an icon of Him whilst I was in school, and it is in my icon corner in my bedroom.

Sashka

WOW

I had to go look for the source of this article and look at the group that produced it. This is the kind of stuff that prompted the late Pope John Paul II to make his apology to our Orthodox brothers and sisters for all the historical wrongs perpetrated against them in the name of reunion or in any other name.

I'm offended by the tone and tenor of this article. It shows no respect for persons, for Churches, or for anything else for that matter. " . . . regaining . . . welded back into . . ."--these terms just give me the chills. Is it to make the Catholic Church look like some sort of parasitic twin that absorbs or interferes with the growth of the other? Of course, looking at the source of this particular twisted way of looking at history and the events of history, one can understand that nothing positive can be said about the Catholic Church without jeopardizing their own position: part of their faith foundation is based on Rome-hatred.

I sincerely hope, however, that my Orthodox brethren do not take this thing seriously. A family does not overcome a long period of estrangement by this sort of attitude.

In Christ,

BOB

Bob,
This is a big part of the problem, and one of my reasons for the continued harping on secularism, and the associated hatred of God and The Church. The average Tom, Dick and Oleg don't read the Byz Forum, but get their news spoon fed to them by people with an agenda that is anything but Christian in nature. And this article is mild compared to some of the lunacy that is being published out there.
What raised my hackles was the discussion over coffee after Liturgy yesterday. Misconceptions abounded. I explained that the Ravenna Document can be compared to the North and South Korean peace negotiations. All that this document states is that the 2 sides have agreed on the shape of the table and to not come out swinging at each other. Nothing more. But to listen to the sound bites from CNN and NBC, one would think that Sergei Troitse Lavra is now a Jesuit Monastery.
Like you, I am concerned about the weight such articles as this will carry amongst the Orthodox laity. In all honestly, those of us in the Russian Church do not think to much about the Catholic Church, as we are the most removed from them of all the Orthodox Churches. To actually have this subject brought up at Trapeza, speaks volumes in itself.

Alexandr

Wow, if ANTV is correct, then the document is good and I can back it! Of course, I do have an ax to grind since I am Orthodox. Usually, we loose in situations like this. Oops, my bias is showing.

Bob, don't worry. I know foolishness when I see it.

Joe