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Dear Friends,

Byzantophile's point is well taken. Simply because the RCC has given approval for the wider use of the Tridentine Liturgy will not/does not satisfy the SSPXer "types." It is Vatican II itself that they call into question and refuse to accept. (Ah, another group that questions the ecumenicity of certain Latin Councils . . . ).

The Latinizations that are very much the norm in many parishes in E. Europe were those that were popular prior to World War II. With the suppression of the UGCC in 1946, those same devotions became the "devotions of spiritual identity" for Greek-Catholics.

The same Greek-Catholics would be horrified (and are, in fact) to learn about "Easternization" and "Orthodox in communion with Rome" movements. And why primarily? It is a knee-jerk reaction to the way the Russian government has historically (in the 19th century and in the 20th) taken down EC churches in areas under its occupation.

It began with a move to "de-Latinize" EC parishes with the removal of precisely the devotions we see in Byzantophile's pictures above - including the removal of the Filioque from the Creed. Ultimately, this led to a "return" of EC's to Orthodoxy (which is not to say that there EC parishes and bishops who didn't become Orthodox on their own as well).

Devotion to the Sacred Hearts and Eucharistic Adoration were the mainstay of the EC New Martyrs, especially Bl. Paul Gojdicz. Although a "stickler" for Eastern liturgical purity, Bl. Leonid Fyodorov was very devoted to the Sacred Hearts and to Eucharistic Adoration - he even said that when it comes to these devotions Eastern Catholics are willing students of Western ways.

Bl. Basil Velichkovsky received Orthodox into communion with Rome and Eastern Catholicism - in his memoirs he wrote that he expressly told the new former Orthodox converts NOT to kneel for Holy Communion but they all did and were more eager for kneeling than the 'cradle' EC's! Pat. Josef Slipyj regularly went to St Neil's Church in Rome for Eucharistic Adoration each day and there is a picture of him blessing the people with a Monstrance at Lourdes etc.

So for many of these parishes, the "innovations" would be a return to their original traditions which, today and sadly, they would see as a program of enforced Russification affecting not only their Church but their national, cultural identity as well - in short, they would react just as their ancestors did in very similar situations and contexts.

Alex

Dear friends, these last few posts have finally brought me to write something about latinizations in the East. I know it's a VERY touchy subject, so bear with me and keep in mind that my intentions are the best.

I am a RC. I have a deep love and fascination for Eastern Christianity and many of it's expressions. Icons, the Jesus Prayer and the Chotki, for example.
My house is full of Icons, and I try to instill this love in others. The parish I go to has a few Icons which are brought out on special occasions and occupy an important place in the Church.
I suppose all this could be described as "Easternizations"... However, these are never looked on in a negative way. On the contrary, they are seen as a way of enriching the community, bringing in wonderful things from the East to make our liturgies and our worship more beautifull, without becoming hybrid.
Now I know it's not the same. I know that Latinization was, for centuries, imposed upon your churches in the most terrible way, and that there is more of a need to get back to your roots in the East than there is in the West. However, some of the reactions I see to things I find deeply moving and pure, such as the Rosary, and, particularly, Eucharistic Adoration are a bit harsh.
If an Eastern Community wishes to worship Christ through adoration of his sacred body, is there anything really wrong about it? Should we try to stop them? Make it clear that it's a western tradition, by all means... but is it really necessary to try and stamp it out?
Just a thought.
God bless you all.

Filipe:

A most thoughtful and considerate post.

Jason

No we should not to try to stop them-not immediatly anyway. I know many here will probably disagree but for many people these things are part of their spiritual heritage of what they perceived to be Eastern Catholic regardless of the fact that many of these things are Latinizations. Converts and the young will probably do better at being what is called "truly" Eastern. The elderly will probably have a much harder time and at this point, why try to take their lifelong devotions away from them? The rest of us can and have learned to adapt away from Western practices but for many there will always be personal favorites that will be kept, for me the Rosary would be a good example. Changes back to fully Eastern spiritual practices should come but gradually and with consideration for those who feel certain Latinizations are part of their heritage.

I have never objected to the rosary as long as it is viewed as what it is - a Latin Church devotion. It's the attempts to cobble together some hybrid devotion palatable to the east that I object to. There's nothing wrong with the rosary as it is. It's an excellent devotion highlighting gospel events in the life of Christ and his mother. Since I am music director for a RC church, I frequently encounter the rosary and say it along with them when the occasion arises. However, it's not eastern and I find the attempts to make it so kind of ridiculous, not to mention a bit less than honest. As for benediction and eucharistic adoration, I tend to view it as a cultural difference between myself and the RCs. There's nothing wrong with it, I just don't do it.

nor should any one have a problem, as I will repeat what I said before on a similar topic. if an EC or anyone else for that matter wishes to recite the Rosary, and it helps with their devotional life, I say more power to them and GOD bless. if a Latin finds Ikons a help, again, GOD bless. just do things in and remember the context and the source. I have known Baptists to wear St.Christopher medals, for reasons that are their own, and I suffer from too much politesse (thanks to keeping old Knickerbocker ways and old South manners, you have my upbringing to thank)to inquire as to why.I myself do not recite the Rosary, but when I hear a siren, I find myself doing a Hail Mary that would do a Latin proud.
Much Love,
Jonn

Dear Felipe,

Well, I hope I wasn't harsh toward these devotions in any way. The fact that they are Latinizations and were often brought into the EC Churches not quite by "imposition" from without, but as a result of EC's feeling that without them they weren't really "Catholic" is where the problem lies.

Like you (and Charles, let's not forget!), I love the Rosary. Eucharistic Adoration brings one into a very special closeness to our Lord. The Sacred Hearts devotion as well.

And I would argue that these devotions already exist in various ways in the Orthodox liturgical tradition and are different in quality and tenor from the way they are practiced in the Latin West. EC's need only follow their ancient ways to discover this. And this is what we all want. Unfortunately, to maintain the Latin form of these devotions in parishes, as our Basilian "Canons Regular" do, is not in the spirit of the Eastern Church that we are called to rediscover and deepen in ourselves.

The Rosary exists as a private devotion in the Russian Orthodox Church, as the Orthodox Encyclopedia of 2003 clearly indicates, among other sources (Staretz Zechariah: An Early Soviet Saint, Chapter 6, as another example). St Seraphim of Sarov not only recited it daily, he insisted that his spiritual children should say it daily. In the Orthodox Encyclopedia, it is even said that according to a revelation to this Saint, the daily recitation of the Rosary/Rule is more important to obtain the Protection of the Mother of God than are akathists and canons!

But this form of prayer should not be prayed as a paraliturgical service in Church, and especially not when there are the Hours and prayers before Communion that should be sung and prayed before the Liturgy etc. (In Diveyevo, the nuns daily go around the Lavra three times, saying and sometimes singing, the 150 Hail Mary's divided into decades by Our Father's - but that is NOT the Rosary - as Charles insists and I will happily agree! )

One may also pray to and adore Our Lord in the Most Holy Eucharist on the Altar without the Monstrance et al. The Sacred Hearts - nothing wrong as a private devotion. For me, the devotion to the Wounded Side of Christ the Lover of Mankind and the icon of the "Prophecy of Simeon" where the Theotokos is depicted with Seven Swords in her soul/heart - that is not only Eastern, but has full liturgical expression of devotion in our Church.

Add to this the Eastern practice of kissing the edge of the Chalice after Holy Communion as an act of veneration of the Most Sacred Wounded Side of our Lord at which we are nourished in Communion - can the Latin West top that? And we have the blessing of the people with the Chalice following Holy Communion - in other words, what the Latin West does outside the Mass during Eucharistic Adoration services (imitated by EC's with 'supplication molebens') is already an integral part of the Divine Liturgy in the Byzantine East! And Rome has always insisted on maintaining Eucharistic Adoration in conjunction with the Mass and Communion - you Latins should be green with envy when you are in our Church for Divine Liturgy!

And we have formal offices of preparation and thanksgiving after Communion. You Latin guys could work on that, you know. I've been to my last Latin Mass where people take Communion in the hand like they were taking a bus ticket and then just walk out of Church as if to say "The Mass is ended - for me."

So no one is against the "pith and substance" of what these devotions represent. What I believe we can all agree on (unless there are any Basilians here) is that the Western forms of these devotions do not belong in EC Churches.

Alex

Dear all,
Thank you for your replies.
Alex, I wasn't referring to you or your post when I mentioned the "harshness", quite the opposite. I wasn't referring to anyone in particular, it's just a certein tone that sometimes arises and which I find a little worrying. I am quite sure that we all agree on the essentials!
I have been away from this forum for quite a while, it's good to be back. I learn so much from all of you... I thought you should know. Thank you very much!
God bless,
Filipe

It is obvious, especially from what Alex tells us above, that
the greatest pastoral delicacy must be exercising in addressing
these matters. Western public devotions to which
Easterners are attached and which to them represent a part
of their bitterly persecuted religious identity must not be
simply surpressed on ideological grounds, even if the ideology
involved is correct. There are no theological errors involved.
Charity first, last and always. What's the rush? These practices
were introduced into the Eastern Churches over a period of
centuries. What matter if it takes a few generations for them to die out? And if they or some of them don't die out - so be it!
No one's salvation is at stake.

Edmac

Dear Edmac,

Well said, my Mentor! Well said!!

Alex

Dear Alex;

Thank you.

But mentor? I blush!I fear I'm not fit to
be anyone's mentor.

I have, as some may know, no Eastern European connections.
The Christians there, Orthodox, Catholics and others have
suffered greatly for the Faith. We, from the Holy Father
on down, must admire and cherish them and cause them no
further distress.

Ed

Dear Ed,

Actually, the best friends EC's ever had were those with no such connections!

Cheers,

Alex

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=54919

That article said he was excommunicated for attending some ordinations. That seems a little overbearing to me given what one can do and not be excommunicated.

Regarding Latinizations, it seems a tricky subject to me. One thing I do agree with is that sensitivity is required, and that in the end you can't dictate forms of piety. What is correct historically, liturgically, etc. may simply not what be what people want or will accept. Trying to fix or purify things may only end up making everyone unhappy, no matter how "right" the changes are.

My own parish retains a number of distinct Latinizations. If somebody came in and starting telling people to change the way they do things, I don't think it would go over well. For better or worse, they're part of the tradition of the church.

Dear AMM,

I believe the article isn't giving the complete overview, but I'll leave it at that. He was excommunicated for much more serious matters than the article indicates.

Personally, I think it is a strength of the Orthodox Church to be as pastorally sensitive as it has been with respect to the people's devotional life, especially that of converts (including St Alexis Toth who was renowned for his sensitivity toward converts, as he was one himself).

Your observations and conclusions are sensitive as well for which I salute you!

Alex

And not only Patriarch Lubomyr - I read his invective article against Kyr Ihor (Vozniak) which was full of hatred and devoid of charity, when Kyr Ihor only stated the obvious publically - these priests do not have valid faculties through the UGCC to do parish work. Period.