www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Why wasn't The Our Father changed

The familiar form of the "Our Father" is from Matthew's Gospel. In both Matthew's and Luke's version the word under consideration in the Greek is epiousion (επιουσιον)(the wording of most of the corresponding verses is different in the two Gospels). This is rendered in the Vulgate (in the phrase): Matthew 6:11 panem nostrum supersubstantialem da nobis hodie. It is not an additional word but the word that translates epiousion (ousia=substantia). The Vulgate of Luke has: Luke 11:3 panem nostrum cotidianum da nobis cotidie. The traditional liturgical form, said in the Latin of the Mass, is a merging of the two: panem nostrum cotidianum da nobis hodie.

So I'm not sure what point was being made.

Dn. Anthony

The epistle book published by the Ruthenian Church uses the term "Brethren" to introduce many of the Pauline epistles. I sang it just prior to the introduction of the Revised Divine Liturgy (when I stopped chanting the Liturgy). No one ever asked me what it meant or had problems with it. It is not obsolete. It is rejected by secular feminists because it hints at masculinity. It is the secular feminists who do not understand....

Unfortunately, the term in the Greek is oi adelphoi. The omicron iota vocative ending is clearly masculine so that it is not inclusive.

hmm...

In Greek, the masculine plural of words referring to humans may include both genders. The ending is masculine because the noun is masculine.

This illustrates the GREAT difficultly in translating from Greek into English. English is a "gendered" language whereas Greek is not. What I mean by this is that gender in Greek is related to grammar and not anthropology. The same is not true of English.

The best way I have found to explain this is to use German. In German, the word for "little girl" is in the neuter -- das madchen. So a literal translation when the pronoun is used would be "it" instead of "her".

This makes translation VERY difficult. Translating a gramamtically gendered language into English almost always obscures some part of the original. For example, we have no way to talk about a non-gendered being. So when we use the pronoun "he" for God a lot of people think that this means God is male. Which, of course, he is not -- God is neither male nor female -- He transcends gender. But our language limits our ability to talk about God in non-gendered ways. But for the Greek, since she does not identify the gender of the word with actual gender (after all, a table is feminine in Greek, etc.), she does not draw false conclusions from the use of the masculine pronoun.

For a portion of my master's thesis many years ago, I set out to offer a new translation of St Ignatius of Antioch's letters. After several months of frustration, I gave up the project and changed my thesis. I realized then that I was not gifted to be a translator. I thank God for those who are and rejoice in their gifts (for example, Fr Seraphim Rose was probably the best translator from Russian that I have ever read).

The Lord's Prayer that we use can be called, "ecumenical." Most Christians will use this English version of the prayer that our Savior taught us. Why add to more fragmentation. Leave the Lord's Prayer alone. If anything, there should be more common texts such as the Creed. When we gather for services, it is nice when we say the same words at the same time.

Just a thought.

Ray
www.theologyincolor.com [theologyincolor.com]
www.myspace.com/iconostasis [myspace.com]

Couldn't the whole Liturgy be considered, "ecumenical"? You're right, leave the Lord's Prayer alone, along with the rest of the Liturgy! It still seems like a hypocrisy to change some things but not others...

When I am at Liturgy, I do not use the new versions of the Creed and the Communion Prayer. I recite them the way I was taught 30+ years ago.

As stated before, change is good, if it is done correctly and for the right reasons. Changing for the sake of change with no real reason is not...

You use the Creed WITH the filioque?

No I do not.

Yeah, me too -- and I really "belt" them out! I figure maybe I'll inspire someone else!

Dear Rusyn31 and Stephanie,

With respect to the Communion prayer: Why is it so necessary to say before Communion that we "confess to you", when in the troparion that the prayer comes from, we say "like the repentent thief I openly profess you"? Was the old translation of the troparion wrong, and we should say "like the thief I openly confess to you" on Great and Holy Thursday? Or do you just object to change, whether its consistent or not? Do you still sing "many happy years" instead of "many blessed years"?

Jeff

Every parish I attend still sings "many happy years". But then again my home parish now has a hybrid liturgy, uses the new RDL texts but most of the music and tropars and kondaks are still sung from the old Levkulic Blue book.

Ung

Dear Jeff,

You yourself have said in essence (see I used an RDL word...)
"it's just a few words, why fuss." Well, you're right, they're just a few words that I choose not to say because the old ones fit me just fine, so why fuss??? I can be forced to say them and leave for the Orthodox church or I can recite/pray those few, other words and stay. It's really that simple. The committee took away my beloved Red Book, and I'm not giving up any more than I have to.

And my Red Book parish said "many blessed years" all along. I wish you could have experienced it -- then you'd know how I feel.

Have a blessed Thanksgiving Jeff, and please don't fret over a few words I choose not to say.

Why didn't the Latins translate "Kyrie Eleison" from the Greek as they did with all the other words?

But I understand what you are getting at. My aunt tells me that their priest still uses the word *Orthodox* in the worship. The singers don't sing the Beatitudes from their new hymnal since their new translation ignores Scripture and adopts feminism.

Ed

We DO have such a word in modern American: "Brethren"