www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Anglican Use v. Anglican Rite

Happy Thangkiving Day to all Americans on here!

Just taking a break between dinner and dessert and saw the thread on another Protestant Episcopal Bishop crossing the Tiber.

The discussion, sadly, took a different turn and was ended. But I'm curious as to what others think of having a seperate Anglican sui juris church within the Catholic fold (not just a use).

At present the Anglican Use parishes use a revised verson of the American Book of Common Prayer, Standard of 1979, which is essentially a variation of the Novus Ordo of the Roman Rite.

However, there has been much talk lately of allowing them to use The English Missal and The English Breviary, which are essentially English translations of the Missale Romanum & Breviarium Romanum as revised by Pope Benedict XV. The books were used by Anglo-Papalists within the Anglican Communion and can still be found in use, albeit on a limited basis, to-day.

This would a be an almost unique situation where the Tridentine Liturgy would be in the vernacular. (The only group to gain permission for this in the past were the Croats of Dalmatia who used the Roman Missal and Breviary in Glagolitic.) It might do much to draw in people who complain about not understanding Latin, as well to help these sort of people understand more fully the beauty of the traditional Roman Rite.

Or do people think that the Anglican Use Catholics should go toward a more Sarumized liturgy? There is equal precedent for that as well.

Also, what do people think should be done about clerical celibacy?

Thoughts, comments, opinions?

The Tridentine Mass will most likely be allowed in the vernacular too, since there's no apparent intention by the Pope to force its use in Latin from the documents that he has issued.

In fact the SSPX groups have been inviting priests in France who are not expert in Latin to learn the Tridentine Mass and celebrate it in the vernacular.

The Sarum Rite is already used by the English Roman Catholic Church on special occasions.

The Traditional Mass won't be offered in the vernacular. The Pope has specifically stipulated that the Old RIte follows all the 1962 liturgical guidelines and norms, which means Latin only, except that the Pope has allowed for the readings (i.e. Epistle and Gospel) in the vernacular, which has often been practiced in the Traditional Mass, anyway.


This is interesting. Can you expand on this? I've heard nothing of it.

Alexis

There are a few groups that supposedly have indults to use the pre-1958 Holy Week Rites e.g. the ICRSS.

As for the lessons, these are usually done in the vernacular before the sermon, but are not the "official" lessons of the Mass.

With the language of the Summorum Pontificum, it might be interesting to see if anyone in Croatia revives the Glagolitic Use of the Roman Rite.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06575b.htm

Dear Friends,

A Happy Thanksgiving to all our American brothers and sisters - Canadians used to celebrate Thanksgiving with you some time ago but this was changed, apparently to stem growing Americanization .

Certainly, the relation of the "other" Western Catholic liturgical rites to Rome as ecclesial realities would be a point of departure here.

What was the status of the "Ecclesia Anglicana" or the English Catholic Church way back when? And of the Primate of Spain when they had the Mozarabic Liturgy, the Celtic Rite, the liturgy of St Germain et al.? Were these local variations of the Latin Rite or Usages - or were they something akin to the Byzantine, Alexandrian etc. Rites and Churches?

There certainly was always an attempt made by the Church of England to be a kind of "patriarchate" and there were problems of bickering between England and Rome over episcopal appointments from the time of St Anselm and Archbishop Stephen Langton. St Anskar of Bremen, it has been affirmed, was interested in creating a kind of "Patriarchate of the North" based in Hamburg. During Catholic-Lutheran discussions the suggestion was made of a "Lutheran-style Patriachate in union with Rome."

To me, "Rite" suggests a complete liturgical AND ecclesial reality independent of the same of Rome, something that cannot be contained in the word "Usage." And in England there were several local rites that came to be amalgamated with varying degrees of success in the Book of Common Prayer (albeit highly abbreviated).

Anyway, some thoughts.

Alex

I would agree that a sui juris chuch be set up for former anglicans and also one for the Lutherans, although the later havent come into the Church in large numbers and I am not aware of whole groups doing so. Some religious lutheran orders have been received. Benedictines in Sweden.
Even saw some evangelical sister Mariaschwestern praying the rosary at the Church of the Dormition in Jerusalem.
Stephanos I

Inasmuch as the Protestant communions originally broke away
from the Roman Church, it would not seem appropriate for
members returning to the RC communion to be put into
"sui juris" Churches of their own but to be re-integrated into
the Roman Church. No real question will arise unless and until
some large body of Protestants wish corporately to be received
into the Catholic Church - for example, an Anglican diocese.
At present, this no longer seems impossible. As far as jurisdiction goes, I think Rome is flexible enought to work
something out. As for Liturgical use, we already have
an Anglican use here in the US as a precedent. We do also have
the tradition of having local rites within the Western Church,
although those have mostly been surpressed or disused. I see no
reason why that practice might not be revived.

Edmac

Dear Edmac,

Well, if all goes according to plans, TAC with its 400,000 members plus will become "Anglicans in union with Rome" (my TAC acquaintance tells me that when this happens, it will serve as the springboard for more Anglicans coming in from other jurisdictions of the "fed-up" category).

One of our RC professors here at the U of T, Dr Richard Toporoski, always maintained that the English were always "Sarum Catholics" and never "Roman Catholics" - he was amazingly dedicated to the Sarum Rite.

Again, it would be interesting to learn what the ecclesial reality of the Churches in the West with the Sarum and other Rites was prior to the Reformation.

Alex

Bless, Father Stephanos!

You know me and Benedictines! Could you explain further about the Benedictines in Sweden you mentioned?

Alex

Well there was this Lutheran group of men that lived the Rule of St Benedict, I forget where in Sweden. After a few years 4 of the 8 decided they were so Catholic minded through their studies, to become reconciled to the Church. All well and good for the 4 and for awhile the other 4 Lutherans lived in a sort of Ecumenical Community. Then they realised that it wouldnt work.
So the 4 Catholic started a community of their own,
Since I no longer am a part of the PSP organization I have lost track of them.
Stephanos I