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On the one hand there's a defense of "Uniatism" that can't help but offend a lot of Orthodox I'd think. On the other hand there's a strong sense of identity that Byzantine Catholics have that defy exacting defensible standards.
I'll quote two scholars on the topic...
Fr. Robert Taft
On the argument made by some Orthodox polemicists that Eastern Catholics should choose between being Latins or being Orthodox: "That's like asking the blacks in Georgia to choose between going back to Liberia or Gabon. Maybe they'd like to stay where they are."
Metropolitan Kallistos of Diokleia
"I very much regret that because of this question the Catholic-Orthodox International Dialogue seems to be making very little progress. My own feeling as an Orthodox is that the Eastern Catholic Churches have a right to exist. And I add, we Orthodox need to ask pardon for the way we have often treated Eastern Catholics in the past. And, not only that, I would add that we Orthodox should see the Eastern Catholics as our best friends in the Catholic Church. Who are best able to understand us. So while I value very much my relations with the Eastern Catholics, I definitely don't see them as being my "bottom line". They are rather my "top line."
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If you have this book, can you give us a few quotes, providing of course a bibliography (for legal reasons, credit is due to those who are having their book directly quoted) The better part of my library is in the back of a storage unit I have been renting since moving 3 months ago. Given your insistence on having an Eastern Catholic offer these things third hand, rather then taking suggestions on official sources to consult, I am indulging your request with some clipped and pasted quotes... Please understand, these are just some patristic sources per your request - parties wishing to better understand Catholic concepts of the papacy would do better to go to Catholic sources to get explinations first hand. I went to Catholic Answers and per your request, I have clipped and pasted some of their patristic sources... They can be found here: http://www.catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_1.asphttp://www.catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_2.aspNow to be quite clear, I am not terribly interested in taking each one in turn disecting, defending or debating each quote, line for line, word for word. I have seen it too often in other venues that people unwittingly spend a lot of time paraphrasing and bolstering their own straw men, and it leaves little edifying except to "proove whose wittier". A large body of work on the papacy is out there, much of it approved by Catholic bishops with an imprimatur & nihil obstat. People wanting to debate this would need to find another sparing partner - I am not the spokesman, I am not the debate champ. But for those with an interest in seeing some very small taste of materials out there, here we are... The Authority of the Pope: Part I
In other Catholic Answers tracts, we have shown that the Church Fathers recognized that Jesus made Peter the rock on which he would build his Church, that this gave Peter a special primacy, that Peter went to Rome, and that he left successors there. In this tract we will show that they also understood that Peter�s successors shared in his special authority or primacy.
In a wide variety of ways, the Fathers attest to the fact that the church of Rome was the central and most authoritative church. They attest to the Church�s reliance on Rome for advice, for mediation of disputes, and for guidance on doctrinal issues. They note, as Ignatius of Antioch does, that Rome "holds the presidency" among the other churches, and that, as Irenaeus explains, "because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree" with Rome. They are also clear on the fact that it is communion with Rome and the bishop of Rome that causes one to be in communion with the Catholic Church. This displays a recognition that, as Cyprian of Carthage puts it, Rome is "the principal church, in which sacerdotal unity has its source."
Most significant are the passages below in which the popes, by their statements or their actions, reveal their understanding of their own authority in the Church, such as when Pope Clement I commanded the church of Corinth to reinstate its leadership, or when Pope Victor excommunicated the churches of Asia Minor as a group, after which the other bishops sought to change Victor�s mind but did not challenge his authority to have made the excommunication.
In this tract we will cover the views of the popes and other Church Fathers up to the year A.D. 341. The views of the Fathers after this period will be covered in the tract, The Authority of the Pope: Part II. Pope Clement I
"Owing to the sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes which have befallen us, we must acknowledge that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the matters in dispute among you, beloved; and especially that abominable and unholy sedition, alien and foreign to the elect of God, which a few rash and self-willed persons have inflamed to such madness that your venerable and illustrious name, worthy to be loved by all men, has been greatly defamed. . . . Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobey the things which have been said by him [God] through us [i.e., that you must reinstate your leaders], let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger. . . . You will afford us joy and gladness if being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy" (Letter to the Corinthians 1, 58�59, 63 [A.D. 80]).
Hermas
"Therefore shall you [Hermas] write two little books and send one to Clement [Bishop of Rome] and one to Grapte. Clement shall then send it to the cities abroad, because that is his duty" (The Shepherd 2:4:3 [A.D. 80]).
Ignatius of Antioch
"Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).
"You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force" (ibid., 3:1).
Dionysius of Corinth
"For from the beginning it has been your custom to do good to all the brethren in various ways and to send contributions to all the churches in every city. . . . This custom your blessed Bishop Soter has not only preserved, but is augmenting, by furnishing an abundance of supplies to the saints and by urging with consoling words, as a loving father his children, the brethren who are journeying" (Letter to Pope Soter in Eusebius, Church History 4:23:9 [A.D. 170]).
"Today we have observed the Lord�s holy day, in which we have read your letter [Pope Soter]. Whenever we do read it [in church], we shall be able to profit thereby, as also we do when we read the earlier letter written to us by Clement" (ibid., 4:23:11).
The Martyrs of Lyons
"And when a dissension arose about these said people [the Montanists], the brethren in Gaul once more . . . [sent letters] to the brethren in Asia and Phrygia and, moreover to Eleutherius, who was then [A.D. 175] bishop of the Romans, negotiating for the peace of the churches" (Eusebius, Church History 5:3:4 [A.D. 312])
"And the same martyrs too commended Irenaeus, already at that time [A.D. 175] a presbyter of the community of Lyons, to the said bishop of Rome, rendering abundant testimony to the man, as the following expressions show: �Once more and always we pray that you may rejoice in God, Pope Eleutherius. This letter we have charged our brother and companion Irenaeus to convey to you, and we beg you to receive him as zealous for the covenant of Christ�" (ibid., 5:4:1�2).
Irenaeus
"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]). Eusebius of Caesarea
"A question of no small importance arose at that time [A.D. 190]. For the parishes of all Asia [Minor], as from an older tradition held that the fourteenth day of the moon, on which the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should be observed as the feast of the Savior�s Passover. . . . But it was not the custom of the churches in the rest of the world . . . as they observed the practice which, from apostolic tradition, has prevailed to the present time, of terminating the fast [of Lent] on no other day than on that of the resurrection of the Savior [Sunday]. Synods and assemblies of bishops were held on this account, and all, with one consent, through mutual correspondence drew up an ecclesiastical decree that the mystery of the resurrection of the Lord should be celebrated on no other but the Lord�s day and that we should observe the close of the paschal fast on this day only. . . . Thereupon [Pope] Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately attempted to cut off from the community the parishes of all Asia [Minor], with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox. And he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicate. But this did not please all the bishops, and they besought him to consider the things of peace and of neighborly unity and love. . . . [Irenaeus] fittingly admonishes Victor that he should not cut off whole churches of God which observed the tradition of an ancient custom" (Church History 5:23:1�24:11).
"Thus then did Irenaeus entreat and negotiate [with Pope Victor] on behalf of the peace of the churches�[Irenaeus being] a man well-named, for he was a peacemaker both in name and character. And he corresponded by letter not only with Victor, but also with very many and various rulers of churches" (ibid., 24:18).
Cyprian of Carthage
"The Lord says to Peter: �I say to you,� he says, �that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven� [Matt. 16:18�19]). ... On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were also what Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).
"Cyprian to [Pope] Cornelius, his brother. Greeting. . . . We decided to send and are sending a letter to you from all throughout the province [where I am] so that all our colleagues might give their decided approval and support to you and to your communion, that is, to both the unity and the charity of the Catholic Church" (Letters 48:1, 3 [A.D. 253]).
"Cyprian to Antonian, his brother. Greeting ... You wrote ... that I should forward a copy of the same letter to our colleague [Pope] Cornelius, so that, laying aside all anxiety, he might at once know that you held communion with him, that is, with the Catholic Church" (ibid., 55[52]:1).
"Cornelius was made bishop by the decision of God and of his Christ, by the testimony of almost all the clergy, by the applause of the people then present, by the college of venerable priests and good men ... when the place of Fabian, which is the place of Peter, the dignity of the sacerdotal chair, was vacant. Since it has been occupied both at the will of God and with the ratified consent of all of us, whoever now wishes to become bishop must do so outside [the Church]. For he cannot have ecclesiastical rank who does not hold to the unity of the Church" (ibid., 55[52]:8).
"With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (ibid., 59:14). Firmilian
"[Pope] Stephen ... boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundations of the Church were laid [Matt. 16:18]. ... Stephen ... announces that he holds by succession the throne of Peter" (collected in Cyprian�s Letters 74[75]:17 [A.D. 253]). Pope Julius I
"[The] judgment [concerning Athanasius] ought to have been made, not as it was, but according to the ecclesiastical canon. It behooved all of you to write us so that the justice of it might be seen as emanating from all. ... Are you ignorant that the custom has been to write first to us and then for a just decision to be passed from this place [Rome]? If, then, any such suspicion rested upon the bishop there [Athanasius of Alexandria], notice of it ought to have been written to the church here. But now, after having done as they pleased, they want to obtain our concurrence, although we never condemned him. Not thus are the constitutions of Paul, not thus the traditions of the Fathers. This is another form of procedure, and a novel practice. ... What I write about this is for the common good. For what we have heard from the blessed apostle Peter, these things I signify to you" (Letter on Behalf of Athanasius [A.D. 341], in Athanasius, Apology Against the Arians 20�35).
The Authority of the Pope: Part II
In another Catholic Answers tract, The Authority of the Pope: Part I, we looked at the views of the popes and the other Church Fathers up to the year A.D. 341 and showed that they recognized the unique authority of the pope, the bishop of Rome, in his role as the successor of Peter. In this tract, we will see that the later popes and Church Fathers retained a similar understanding of the Petrine office.
Council of Sardica
"[I]f any bishop loses the judgment in some case [decided by his fellow bishops] and still believes that he has not a bad but a good case, in order that the case may be judged anew . . . let us honor the memory of the apostle Peter by having those who have given the judgment write to Julius, Bishop of Rome, so that if it seem proper he may himself send arbiters and the judgment may be made again by the bishops of a neighboring province" (canon 3 [A.D. 342]).
"[I]f some bishop be deposed by the judgment of the bishops sitting in the neighborhood, and if he declare that he will seek further redress, another should not be appointed to his see until the bishop of Rome can be acquainted with the case and render a judgment" (canon 4). Optatus of Milevus
"In the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head�that is why he is also called Cephas [�Rock�]�of all the apostles, the one chair in which unity is maintained by all. Neither do the apostles proceed individually on their own, and anyone who would [presume to] set up another chair in opposition to that single chair would, by that very fact, be a schismatic and a sinner. . . . Recall, then, the origins of your chair, those of you who wish to claim for yourselves the title of holy Church" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]).
Council of Constantinople I
"The bishop of Constantinople shall have the primacy of honor after the bishop of Rome, because his city is New Rome" (canon 3 [A.D. 381]).
Pope Damasus I
"Likewise it is decreed . . . that it ought to be announced that . . . the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: �You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven� [Matt. 16:18�19]. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it" (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]). Synod of Ambrose
"We recognize in the letter of your holiness [Pope Siricius] the vigilance of the good shepherd. You faithfully watch over the gate entrusted to you, and with pious care you guard Christ�s sheepfold [John 10:7ff], you that are worthy to have the Lord�s sheep hear and follow you" (Synodal Letter to Pope Siricius [A.D. 389]). Jerome
"I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Pope Damasus I], that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails" (Letters 15:2 [A.D. 396]).
"The church here is split into three parts, each eager to seize me for its own. . . . Meanwhile I keep crying, �He that is joined to the chair of Peter is accepted by me!� . . . Therefore, I implore your blessedness [Pope Damasus I] . . . tell me by letter with whom it is that I should communicate in Syria" (ibid., 16:2). Augustine
"There are many other things which rightly keep me in the bosom of the Catholic Church. The consent of the people and nations keeps me, her authority keeps me, inaugurated by miracles, nourished in hope, enlarged by love, and established by age. The succession of priests keep me, from the very seat of the apostle Peter (to whom the Lord after his resurrection gave charge to feed his sheep) down to the present episcopate [of Pope Siricius]" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 5 [A.D. 397]).
"[On this matter of the Pelagians] two councils have already been sent to the Apostolic See [the bishop of Rome], and from there rescripts too have come. The matter is at an end; would that the error too might be at an end!" (Sermons 131:10 [A.D. 411]). Pope Innocent I
"If cases of greater importance are to be heard [at a council], they are, as the synod decrees and as happy custom requires, after episcopal judgment, to be referred to the Apostolic See" (Letters 2:3:6 [A.D. 408]).
"In seeking the things of God . . . following the examples of ancient tradition . . . you have strengthened . . . the vigor of your religion with true reason, for you have acknowledged that judgment is to be referred to us, and have shown that you know what is owed to the Apostolic See, if all of us placed in this position are to desire to follow the apostle himself [Peter] from whom the episcopate itself and the total authority of this name have emerged. Following him, we know how to condemn evils just as well as we know how to approve what is laudable. Or rather, guarding with your priestly office what the Fathers instituted, you did not regard what they had decided, not by human but by divine judgments, as something to be trampled on. They did not regard anything as finished, even though it was the concern of distant and remote provinces, until it had come to the notice of this See [Rome], so that what was a just pronouncement might be confirmed by the authority of this See, and thence other churches�just as all waters proceed from their own natal source and, through the various regions of the whole world, remain pure liquids of an incorrupted head. . . ." (ibid., 29:1). Pope Celestine I
"We enjoin upon you [my legates to the Council of Ephesus] the necessary task of guarding the authority of the Apostolic See. And if the instructions handed to you have to mention this and if you have to be present in the assembly, if it comes to controversy, it is not yours to join the fight but to judge of the opinions [on my behalf]" (Letters 17 [A.D. 431]). Council of Ephesus
"Philip, presbyter and legate of [Pope Celestine I] said: �We offer our thanks to the holy and venerable synod, that when the writings of our holy and blessed pope had been read to you, the holy members, by our holy voices, you joined yourselves to the holy head also by your holy acclamations. For your blessedness is not ignorant that the head of the whole faith, the head of the apostles, is blessed Peter the apostle. And since now [we], after having been tempest-tossed and much vexed, [have] arrived, we ask that you order that there be laid before us what things were done in this holy synod before our arrival; in order that according to the opinion of our blessed pope and of this present holy assembly, we likewise may ratify their determination�" (Acts of the Council, session 2 [A.D. 431]). Pope Leo I
"Our Lord Jesus Christ . . . established the worship belonging to the divine religion. . . . But the Lord desired that the sacrament of this gift should pertain to all the apostles in such a way that it might be found principally in the most blessed Peter, the highest of all the apostles. And he wanted his gifts to flow into the entire body from Peter himself, as if from the head, in such a way that anyone who had dared to separate himself from the solidarity of Peter would realize that he was himself no longer a sharer in the divine mystery. . . . [You, my brothers], must realize with us, of course, that the Apostolic See�out of reverence for it, I mean�has on countless occasions been reported to in consultation by bishops even of your own province [Vienne]. And through the appeal of various cases to this see, decisions already made have been either revoked or confirmed, as dictated by long-standing custom" (Letters 10:2�3 [A.D. 445]).
"As for the resolution of the bishops which is contrary to the Nicene decree, in union with your faithful piety, I declare it to be invalid and annul it by the authority of the holy apostle Peter" (ibid., 110).
"If in your view, [Anastasius of Thessalonica], in regard to a matter to be handled and decided jointly with your brothers, their decision was other than what you wanted, then let the entire matter, with a record of the proceedings, be referred to us. . . . Although bishops have a common dignity, they are not all of the same rank. Even among the most blessed apostles, though they were alike in honor, there was a certain distinction of power. All were equal in being chosen [to be apostles], but it was given to one to be preeminent over the others. . . . [So today through the bishops] the care of the universal Church would converge in the one see of Peter, and nothing should ever be at odds with this head" (ibid., 14:11). Peter Chrysologus
"We exhort you in every respect, honorable brother, to heed obediently what has been written by the most blessed pope of the city of Rome, for blessed Peter, who lives and presides in his own see, provides the truth of faith to those who seek it. For we, by reason of our pursuit of peace and faith, cannot try cases on the faith without the consent of the bishop of Rome" (Letters 25:2 [A.D. 449]). Council of Chalcedon
"Bishop Paschasinus, guardian of the Apostolic See, stood in the midst [of the Council Fathers] and said, �We received directions at the hands of the most blessed and apostolic bishop of the Roman city [Pope Leo I], who is the head of all the churches, which directions say that Dioscorus is not to be allowed to sit in the [present] assembly, but that if he should attempt to take his seat, he is to be cast out. This instruction we must carry out" (Acts of the Council, session 1 [A.D. 451]).
"After the reading of the foregoing epistle [The Tome of Leo], the most reverend bishops cried out: �This is the faith of the fathers! This is the faith of the apostles! So we all believe! Thus the orthodox believe! Anathema to him who does not thus believe! Peter has spoken thus through Leo!�" (ibid., session 2). Pope Gregory I
"Your most sweet holiness, [Bishop Eulogius of Alexandria], has spoken much in your letter to me about the chair of Saint Peter, prince of the apostles, saying that he himself now sits on it in the persons of his successors. And indeed I acknowledge myself to be unworthy . . . I gladly accepted all that has been said, in that he has spoken to me about Peter�s chair, who occupies Peter�s chair. And, though special honor to myself in no wise delights me . . . who can be ignorant that holy Church has been made firm in the solidity of the prince of the apostles, who derived his name from the firmness of his mind, so as to be called Peter from petra. And to him it is said by the voice of the Truth, �To you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven� [Matt. 16:19]. And again it is said to him, �And when you are converted, strengthen your brethren� [Luke 22:32]. And once more, �Simon, son of John, do you love me? Feed my sheep� [John 21:17]" (Letters 40 [A.D. 597]). www.catholic.com [ catholic.com] has some more materials, at the more "popular level" of apologetics.
Last edited by A Simple Sinner; 11/25/07 10:27 PM.
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Forum Keilbasa Sleuth Member
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Anyone? Sunday school 101.
Last edited by Orthodox Pyrohy.; 11/25/07 11:54 PM.
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Anyone? Sunday school 101. see above? What exactly more are you looking for?
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Dear Orthodox Pyrohy,
OK, why am I, the UGCC, in union with Rome?
There were a number of reasons and conditions that led to the Union of Brest in 1596. The Orthodox bishops in the Ruthenian Metropolia were often chosen by the Polish King, for one and so were sympathetic to the RC Church.
By the same token, the Patriarch of Constantinople who was outside the Polish Kingdom was extremely suspicious of his own bishops there and so appointed laity in stauropeghial brotherhoods to oversee them. A bad move that led those bishops to start to look westward where bishops did not have the "lay yoke" around their necks and the like.
Plus there was a great pull westward due to the advances in Western learning and culture. The East tended to be denigrated for lacking on both counts in general (i.e. St Peter Mohyla and the Kyivan Baroque).
Those were the main reasons why the Orthodox bishops thought they could simply "change patriarchal loyalties" from Constantinople to Rome. Although the Ruthenian Metropolia was divided afterwards, both Catholic and Orthodox there came under heavy Latinization irrespectively.
After initial uneasiness about the Unia in western Ukraine especially (Lviv didn't join until 1700) the EC Church became the "mother Church" of the people there. With Met. Andrew Sheptytsky and the period of cultural revival of the peoples of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Eastern Catholicism truly did become "our Church" among the formerly Orthodox peoples in that area. In addition, Orthodoxy in its Russian format became an enemy not only to ECism in western Ukraine and elsewhere, but also to the people's cultural identity itself. The ongoing battle between Russifiers and Austrophiles etc. - all a product of that age.
Then the era of the Soviet Unioni and the liquidation of the Unia in 1946, the new EC Martyrs and Confessors and now the rebirth of the EC Church . . . "Orthodoxy" for many of the people there has tended to become identified with their oppressors and, truth be told, has become a bad word for them, but not for all.
My point is that in all this cultural/political/national upheaval throughout history - patristics texts, the Filioque and what-not take a definite back-seat.
So why is my Church in union with Rome? Because it believes it is fulfilling God's Will in being in union with the Successor of Peter. You know, that stuff about "On this rock I will build my Church" And because being EC defines who we are.
Alex
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Since I don't possess the eloquence of my brother Alex, I can only say that the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is my ecclesiastical home, and I firmly believe the conditions of restoring full communion with Rome our Fathers agreed to at the Union of Brest are exactly what are needed for assuring both particularity and full Eucharistic communion with the successor of Peter for myself, my family, and my particular Church. Articles I and II say it quite well: 1.�Since there is a quarrel between the Romans and Greeks about the procession of the Holy Spirit, which greatly impede unity really for no other reason than that we do not wish to understand one another�we ask that we should not be compelled to any other creed but that we should remain with that which was handed down to us in the Holy Scriptures, in the Gospel, and in the writings of the holy Greek Doctors, that is, that the Holy Spirit proceeds, not from two sources and not by a double procession, but from one origin, from the Father through the Son.
2.�That the divine worship and all prayers and services of Orthros, Vespers, and the night services shall remain intact (without any change at all) for us according to the ancient custom of the Eastern Church, namely: the Holy Liturgies of which there are three, that of Saint Basil, that of Saint Chrysostom, and that of Epiphanius which is served during the Great Lent with Presanctified Gifts, and all other ceremonies and services of our Church, as we have had them until now, for in Rome these same services are kept within the obedience of the Supreme Pontiff, and that these services should be in our own language. I also will acknowledge the witness of Metropolitan Andrey, Patriarch Josyp, and the New Martyrs and Confessors of Rus' as well in enlightening me, giving me courage and strong intercession, and being preeminent examples of "taking it to the limit" as Greek Catholics.
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Dear Father DIAKone,
You are to be saluted!
Alex
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My archbishop, Far�s Maakaroun, once in a interview said:
�The entire Church accept that a person is the head. Everybody accept this. The Church cannot walk with two, three, twenty heads. One only head. As always it was seen in the first centuries: a first one between equal (primus inter paris). The infallibility of the Pope is manifested when the Pope teaches on behalf of all the Church congregated for this moment, as it was a Ecumenical Council. At this moment he is infallible. But, in his proper life, he is a man, like us. All the churches accept that in an ecumenical meeting he pronounces as head of the universal Church. Rome always was seen as the first headquarters, between all the patriarchal churches. Also in the Pentarchy, Rome always occupied the first place. This primacy continues acceptable for all the churches, in the condition of being a primacy of a love and service, and not of authority. Rome is not only a service of authority. When it were needed to take a decision, to proclaim a dogma, a new thing in the Church, and all the Church were congregated for that, in this occasion the Pope will be infallible. Therefore we have to work more in the unit of the churches and to stop a little to proclaim dogmas.�
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Dear Phillipe,
I guess that is why Catholics believe they are "a head . . ."
Alex
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I quoted Hans Kung and last time I checked Kung is a respected theologian, although he obviously has his detractors. We have a difference of opinion because I do care about what he has to say! Some consider him too liberal, but he is spot on as far as i am concerned. I quoted his comments from the Hasler text. Such high praise for Hans K�ng on here! I suppose people realize that he supports women's ordination? Should I expect the dear readers of this forum to start supporting this as well? Still he points to reasons for hope. The rule of celibacy, which Kung believes to be man-made, not God-ordained, is "contrary to scripture," and will eventually be made optional, he believes, especially in the wake of the priest shortage and the fact that Latin American and African bishops know "they cannot command celibacy from their priests." With the ending of mandatory celibacy, the door blocking women's ordination will have to be opened, he said. The full article: http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-122105395.html
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I quoted Hans Kung and last time I checked Kung is a respected theologian, although he obviously has his detractors. We have a difference of opinion because I do care about what he has to say! Some consider him too liberal, but he is spot on as far as i am concerned. I quoted his comments from the Hasler text. Such high praise for Hans K�ng on here! I suppose people realize that he supports women's ordination? Should I expect the dear readers of this forum to start supporting this as well? Still he points to reasons for hope. The rule of celibacy, which Kung believes to be man-made, not God-ordained, is "contrary to scripture," and will eventually be made optional, he believes, especially in the wake of the priest shortage and the fact that Latin American and African bishops know "they cannot command celibacy from their priests." With the ending of mandatory celibacy, the door blocking women's ordination will have to be opened, he said. The full article: http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-122105395.htmlMy friend, this is a red herring. Joe
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Forum Keilbasa Sleuth Member
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Red Herring: closely related to the blue and silver herrings but not the river herring. Found in fresh and midly salinic waters off the coast of Western Chil�, the fish is noted for it's smooth and light taste. The Red Herring fishery supports an estimated 39,000 Chileans. It is best prepared either over a fire or in the pan, and often is preserved for winter use. Altough not popular outside of Chil� and Agrentina until recently, cosmopolitan restaurants throughout South and Central America have recently started adding the Red Herring to their menu. Speculators in the Red Herring market estimate that by early 2009 the fish will have gained wide popularity in North America and be commonly found in grocery stores, fancy restaurants, caf�s and even the common tavern. The President of Chil� has been quoted as saying "the Red Herring may bring more jobs to our country." Enviromental groups keep their eyes on the fishery. Reports that once the fish is sold throughout the Americas, there may only be 20 to 45 years worth of Red Herring left in the wild. Luckily, reserachers at Montevideo University have successfully raised the Red Herring in cultivation. Therefore, international free trade of the Red Herring has been agreed on by almost all of the countries in the Americas. Fisherman, chefs, store owners and fish lovers look forward to the long-term stability of this emerging fish choice, packed with Omega 3 and tasty too, enjoy!
Last edited by Orthodox Pyrohy.; 11/29/07 09:27 PM.
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Does pyrohy go well with red herring?
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Does pyrohy go well with red herring? Reports of remote Ukrainian/Rusyn settlements deep within the And�s have reported that indeed the two complement each other. Until the fish is sold here in the USA, we will not be able to confirm these reports.
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