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There is no reason why the Celtic peoples today could not return to as much of their ancient Celtic liturgical heritage as possible.

Alex


Well does anyone have their entire liturgy from beginning to end?
We do have a lot more info on them than the past but do we have enough to have a seperate rite?
My point was that the Celtic rite was unique unto itself neither Byzantine or Roman although it had theolgical aspects that sometimes appear eastern and sometimes western. It is what it was a catholic church in union with Rome but with poor communication with Rome - it was on island before modern navigation was known no phones, emails, or faxes or conference calls so misconceptions and such were the rule in those days. Ireland lying on the very extremity of the Roman Empire was not a priority for Rome thus the Anglicanized chruch of England pretty much had their way with stomping her out.
And the bit of info by King Henry VII was no suprise he was after all the Defender of the Faith and the popes poster boy before his addiction to women and the desire for male heirs put him in bad standing. I don't think Rome had it out for Ireland, she simply didn't care and let the bishops in England anglocize the Celtic church. THe English curch really did have a horse in the race and wanted to covert the Celtic Church in her own image and that is what happened until the Reformation. The Anglican Church breaking away from Rome was in a way the best thing to happen to Irish Catholcism spirtually - materially the persection was severe and a high price to pay for the Irish faithful.

Dear Tobit,

You are absolutely correct!

I do believe there are translations of the Celtic liturgies and of the Celtic horologion. I've downloaded a version of the latter from a site and it is quite remarkable, both for its length and for the number of psalms required!

I think that if the Irish and the Scots (and others) began reclaiming their Celtic liturgical tradition that this would make an impressive impact on Western Christianity!

And the asceticism of the Celtic monastics really goes beyond that of the East . . .

Real Celtic spirituality (not the new age stuff that labels itself as such) is something we can all benefit from!

Alex

Alex,

Father Geoffrey's site http://www.nireland.com/orthodox/celtic.htm no longer appears to be active.

Many years,

Neil

Tobit,

As I recollect, there are no extant copies of the Ordinary of the Gallican Liturgy; what does exist are primarily materials relative to the liturgical year, sacramental administration, and other occasional services, such as blessings, etc. If my memory is correct, it is a stretch to assert that the Rite exists - it is certainly not among the approved Rites of the Latin Church for celebration of the Mass; those being limited to the Mozarabic, Ambrosian, and Bragan.

Many years,

Neil

Dear Neil,

What a shame he no longer has that site online!

He had two excellent essays on Pelagius and John Scotus of the 9th century on it . . .

I guess we're stuck with celticchristianity.org!

Alex

Andrew,

I agree. There are significant numbers of Americans, East Europeans, and others of Eastern Christian heritage living in Ireland as a consequence of employment.

The facts that Father Serge Kelleher has a vibrant Ukrainian Greek-Catholic community worshipping in Dublin at Saint Kevin's Oratory, that His Beatitude Maximos V Hakim approved a translation of the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom in Gaelic, and that there are also Maronite Catholic, as well as Greek, Romanian, Antiochian, ROCOR, and Russian (Patriarchal) Orthodox parishes in Eire and Northern Ireland already are solid testaments to the presence of our peoples and certainly justify provision being made for their pastoral care.

Many years,

Neil

Alex,

I agree; it was an excellent site. I do know a ROCOR priest who, I believe, is a friend of Father Geoffrey. Will check with him and see if he's aware of a new web addy. I wasn't able to track one down.

Many years,

Neil

It is amusing to read myriad of accounts pointing to the "Orthodox" roots of Ireland without a lengthy entry on the role of St. Patrick, the "Apostle to the Irish!"

Many are borne out of Irish legends but there is no denying historical accounts that St. Patrick travelled from Scotland across the strait to Gaul (France) and thence to Rome and, after ordination to the episcopacy, was sent to Ireland as a missionary by Pope Celestine in 432 A.D.

Coptic monks (?) could have accompanied him but the evangelization of the Celtic nation was in the main through the efforts and guidance of St. Patrick.

Amado

According to the booklet "The One Church and the Communion of Churches" printed 2002 The Gallican Rite still exists in Lyon France and that's it.
It probably is overlooked as a distinct rite because it is practiced in only one archdiocese in the whole world Lyon France.
According to the booklet published by The Eastern Catholic Pastoral Association "It has a strong Eastern influence. Ireland too is known to have had a form of this Gallican LIturgy mixed with Celtic customs.' The person who created this booklet is a Maronite catholic priest he's pretty informed about all the different rites of the catholic church I don't think he wrong here.

"According to the booklet "The One Church and the Communion of Churches" printed 2002 The Gallican Rite still exists in Lyon France and that's it."

This is historically inaccurate. The "Use of Lyon" was one of the variants on the Roman Rite which was permitted to continue after the Council of Trent (like the Ambrosian Use in the Metropolitan Province of Milan in Italy, or the Mozarabic Use in a very few places in the Diocese of Toledo in Spain). It certainly has "Gallican elements, but if you examine its liturgical books and practice, it is obviously a local variant on the Roman Rite.

The church that is probably using more "Gallican" elements than anyone else is the Orthodox Catholic Church of France. The liturgy devised for it by its originators used many elements described as "Gallican" in ancient documents (with a hefty amount of Byzantine elements as well).

Prof. J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

There are certainly English translation of the Gallican Liturgy as served by some Orthodox in France (and elsewhere) today. The Latin text of the Mozarabic Liturgy (meaning the Gallican Liturgy as used in Toledo Cathedral - in the Mozarabic chapel only, as a rule - and a few other places) is certainly available, and there must also be a Spanish translation.

The Celtic Liturgy was a set of variations on the Gallican Liturgy.

The problem, however, is that such expressions as the Gallican Liturgy and the Mozarabic Liturgy imply a much tighter form than is in fact the case.

As a consequence, it would be no huge challenge to assemble a Celtic Liturgy from existing materials, but it would be impossible to swear that such a reconstruction is the Celtic Liturgy. Still, it might well be worth a try.

Incognitus

If this is the case I stand corrected I am was going by my source if it is incorrect I apologize and appreciate the corrected information. Thanks.