www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West The Pope and the Creed

This is a combination question and comment.

It is my understanding that Pope JPII always recited the creed in its original 381 form whenever eastern bishops (Catholic or Orthodox) were present.

Is this correct as I've stated it? (Or should I have said, e.g., "usually" instead of "always", or "byzantine" instead of "eastern", or something?)

The reason I bring this up is I was watching a bit of the papal mass for the Feast of Christ the King (on EWTN), and I noticed that the creed was said in Latin with the "filioque" insertion -- despite the fact that at least one EC bishop, the Chaldean Catholic Patriarch no less, was present. I'm wondering whether this means that Pope Benedict isn't following the same practice as JPII.

Thanks in advance,
Peter.

Within a context of a Latin liturgy, I don't see the problem with having the Filioque in the Creed. It is the tradition of our Roman Church. Those Easterners are participating in a Latin Mass.

Alexis

I was once at an interfaith service (RC/Orthodox), and you should have heard the tongue ties at that part of the Creed!

Dear Friends,

Certainly, many EC's have the Filioque in their Creed. In the UGCC, we have parishes "who do" and those "who don't."

Frankly, outside of some sort of great ecumenical reawakening between East and West that would suggest that unity is both a priority and is immanent, there is no need for the West to move on the Filioque in its Liturgy.

On principle, although it is a Latin tradition, it is a late one and the more ancient Latin tradition is to have the Nicene Creed without the Filioque.

Pope John Paul II was being diplomatic, but if Pope Benedict doesn't follow suit, it doesn't imply anything. Whatever language or rite Pope Benedict celebrates the Mass in - he is still celebrating as the head of, and as the pre-eminent member of, the Latin Church in the first instance.

EC's themselves can't agree on whether to have the Filioque in or out - what do we want of the Pope of Rome?

Alex

Peter,

Pope John Paul II did not always exclude the filioque in the recitation of the creed when in the presence of Eastern bishops. The controversy (in Latin circles) was that he ever excluded it!

I believe his practice was to exclude the filioque in settings that were specifically "Eastern", but to include it otherwise.

Dear Friends,

One way to get around the Filioque in EC parishes is to do what the original "Orthodox in communion with Rome" did when pressed to recite the Filioque.

Rather than "I Syna" ('and the Son') they would say "Istynno" or "truly" as in "Truly does He proceed from the Father."

The latter sounded like the former anyway.

Alex

Alex,

Is this really an intellectually honest thing to do though? Isn't it like saying that I believe in papal infallibility and then hold in my mind a different idea of infallibility than what the Church intends to teach? It seems to me that this approach opens up the way to too much equivocation.

Joe

Dear Friend,

Well, in the context of the Creedal incident, the people simply didn't want to add anything to the way they always celebrated the Creed. Over time, when the Filioque took hold, that became the "banner" of ECism.

As for papal infallibility, I think that since Rome calls EC's to be as true to their Eastern traditions as being in union with Rome will allow ( ) - Rome shouldn't be surprised that EC's interpret papal infallibility in conciliar terms or papal jurisdiction in "we'll call you on an as needed basis."

If that upsets Rome, then it should send out a canonical letter telling us to go to . . . our mother Orthodox Churches.

I can't be any more honest than this without incurring the wrath of my Eparch (who has, as I am led to believe, really gotten to know me by way of this forum - I owe it all to the Administrator! ).

Happily, he doesn't believe I'm for real - nor does the Administrator . . .

Cheers, dear Brother in Christ!

Alex

Francis, that clarification is most helpful. Thank you.

Alex, that's an interesting idea. Another example: the PNCC recites the line as "who proceedth from the Father". (Actually I've only been to one PNCC parish, but I believe that's the way it's recited for all of their masses that are in English.) I don't know the exact history -- in particular, whether they first just dropped the "filioque" and then later changed "proceed" to "proceedth", or whether they did both at the same time -- but in any case it seems obvious that the word "proceedth" was/is used to help people get out of the "rut" of automatically adding "and the Son".

Joe, I would like to respond, but I will start another thread so as to leave this one on the Creed.

God bless,
Peter.

Fond though I am of mythology and folk etymology, accuracy requires me to point out that the "istinno" in the Church-Slavonic text of the Creed predates attempts to interpolate the Filioque into that text - the "istinno" is in the pre-Nikionian texts.

Fr. Serge

It was my understanding that JP II would use the original form of the Creed when celebrating Divine Liturgy, but not Mass. In Canada the UGCC bishops issued a pastoral letter a couple of years ago asking UGCC parishes in the country to use the original form of the Creed.

Bless, Father Sergius!

Yes, I always wondered about the inclusion of "istynno" in the pre-Nikonian Creed. It is in a different location than the one our dear Ukrainian villagers had to avoid being beaten by the Polish gendarmes sent to ensure compliance with the Filioque in those early years of the glorious Union of Brest!

Other examples of how our people understood other items include: NIKA = "Na holhofi Iskupyl Kroviu Adama" ("He redeemend Adam by His Blood on Golgotha").

And "Deisis" = "De-Isus" (Where Jesus is).

Not to mention colloquialisms in western Canada ("Redemptorists" = "Dentrists").

I may have to invoke the old use of "istynno" in my class as some parents aren't happy with my "incomplete" usage of the Creed there . . .

Happy feastday of St Joasaph (RC calendar) who some say was the Buddha (you brought this to my attention years ago and then decried the lack of scholarship of those who held this view).

Alex

Dear Alex,

If you enjoy that sort of etymology, you'll love this one: some people in Western Ukraine use the expression "Redempterroristy"!

And I won't even tell you (at least not in a public forum) what sometimes happens to the word "autocephalous".

Fr. Serge

Bless, Father!

I LOVE it!

And appropriate given the number of bishops we have from that illustrious Order of Canons Regular.

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex