www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West How do you know it's time to start moving?

I was gently (or not so gently) prodded by another poster to begin my inquiries at this Board.

I am not a brainiac and I read some of these posts and I'd have to have 10 foot high heels to be able to reach such lofty and intellectual postings. Basically, I don't have the brain matter to conduct a thorough investigation into Eastern Theology v. Western Theology. I am Roman Catholic. The thought that the true Catholic Church may not be the Catholic Church is very sad for me. I've been attending both a Byzantine Ukrainian Catholic Church and also a Greek Orthodox Church. At the same time, attending daily RC Mass and Sunday Mass with my family (who would absolutely not make any change). I find myself looking forward to the Eastern feast days because that's when I can attend the Greek Orthodox liturgy.

The obvious question is whether the Pope being first among equals means an authority less than what is claimed by Catholics and if it does mean that, then Eastern Orthodoxy is where I would belong, but I can't ever imagine leaving the Catholic Church. It's akin to having someone I love tell me they're dying.

So, that leaves me with my Sunday morning Liturgy at the Byzantine Urkrainian Catholic church. Of course I sit there wondering about whether or not we have it right or the Orthodox do, but the Liturgy is 100% closer to what I believe it should be than the RC Mass. I've never developed a devotion to the rosary, I have over the past years collected many icons (and was so uninformed about the east that I hadn't realized they were from an Eastern Orthodox monastery--I only knew Jesus and Mary didn't look anything like the images I'd been seeing my whole life)...I've acquired a small collection of the writings of St. Gregory of Nyssa (including his commentary on the Song of Songs which is one book I will never lend out . All this before I'd known really anything about Eastern Orthodoxy or Eastern Catholic churches.

So my dilemma (albeit a long-winded one and I am sorry) is the pull, the attraction to the Greek Orthodox church, coupled with a sinking feeling of doubt about my own Catholicism has me feeling a wee bit panicky. I see the Eastern Catholic church as someplace I can go in the process of figuring out where the Truth is...but what does one do to actually discover the Eastern spirituality? Am I supposed to wean myself out of the West and take on Eastern ways or is that being a hypocrite? There's no way I can continue to attend only RC Mass--I just can't do it anymore. I'm not critizing it or anyone who is fulfilled there, but I feel like I'm dying of spiritual thirst there. How do you know it's time to make some sort of move to the East and what to do?

All my icons would look great in an icon corner, and I'd actually like to get a vigil lamp, but even things such as is the lamp always burning? If so, how would you keep it burning? I've taken a step of ordering the prayer book Old Orthodox Prayer Book, but at the same time I ordered Jesus, Peter & the Keys: A Scriptural Handbook on the Papacy by Butler. I have this huge sadness over thinking perhaps Catholicism is not the one true church and I don't want to make a mistake. I have the Early Church Fathers 38 book set but now it's only the more confusing in light of the fact much seems to support Orthodoxy.

How does one know truly when to begin breaking ties with the west and in what steps?

(Apologies on this awfully long and borish post.)

Glad

Welcome to Byzcath

May your time here be profitable .

Glad,

I can certainly identify with being pulled simultaneously in a variety of different directions. Speaking for myself, I would attempt first to determine where exactly you are at and then figure out the nature and desirability of the options available to you. The Papacy is a somewhat complicated issue, and I have noticed misreadings and logical fallacies in popular apologetic material advocating the RC & Orthodox positions on the matter; another approach I chose was to flesh out the Christological & spiritual implications of Eastern and Western theology and anthropology; it is in part because of this that I became Orthodox. I see no reason why Roman Catholics looking seriously at the East would not want to "tentatively" place themselves in one of the Eastern Catholic Churches before making the life-altering choice of remaining inside or moving outside the RCC.

Eastern Catholicism would have been an option had I come to the conclusion that their theological conceptions and spiritual approaches were more compatible with and less disimilar to one another. I have conversed with Eastern Catholics online and in person who believe that Rome is internally deficient in some respects and has embraced serious theological errors, but I find their stance confusing and their position logically incoherent. If you ever come to such a conclusion or come to the belief that moving towards Orthodoxy would be in your spiritual best interests, at that point I would strongly suggest moving. Feel free to message me or reply in this thread with any more general questions.

Slava Isusu Christu!
Slava na Viki!

Welcome to the ByzCath board! I am certainly not the person to answer all of your questions. I don't think anyone can. I would be suspicious of anyone who claimed to have all of the answers. My only advice is to follow your heart. Ask plenty of questions and don't be afraid to ask any and every question you have. There really is no such thing as a stupid question. Don't worry about the heights reached by some posters. Sit back, read the posts, make up your own mind about which posters say what and how it fits into your beliefs. Trust yourself and trust God.

welcome home!

Tim

Glad,

First of all, welcome to the forum! There are quite a few of us ECs who eagerly await a reunion between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, but pending a true resolution of the issue aren't sure just what the authority of the Pope of Rome is. We frequently discuss things like Vatican I and what it means to us as ECs (and RCs and EOs), and there is a broad spectrum of opinion on the matter.

You're making a good choice just by joining this forum. The people here can put you in touch with a number of resources, as well as just sharing their own feelings and insights on the various issues regarding Eastern Christianity in the modern world. You don't have to "wean" yourself of anything: as you add more Eastern devotions and practices to your prayer life, the old ones might just drop off--or perhaps not. Don't try to make that decision ahead of time.

Here again, you'll find some members in this forum who are adamant that Orthodoxy is the way to go, while others are content to remain ECs (or even RCs). Read what they have to say, but always pray before making a decision.

Yes, it is always sad when we learn things that call some of our most fundamental beliefs into question. I can only say you'll find a lot of company right here.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Dear Glad,

May He who is the source of peace, give you that which you thirst for.

I too can relate to your situation. Having come from Protestantism to the Catholic Church (Eastern Catholic) was a long, mentally, and heart challenging journey indeed. In fact, for two years I was certain that my family and I would become Orthodox, but in the end we ended up as Eastern Rite Catholics. My love for Orthodox theology and spirituality have not diminished in any way because of this decision though.
I whole heartedly concur with Deacon Richard, pray, pray, pray. Often times I thought it was solely an intellectual decision as opposed to a decision of the heart.

As an FYI - a book that helped me was: "The Russian Church and the Papacy", by Vladimir Soloviev.

In Christ,
Aaron

My own personal opinion is that the main overriding factor in a situation like this is finding a place one is comfortable in. The theological arguments in my opinion are largely head games.


I would only say in regards to this that being Orthodox does not make one have to believe the RCC is not a true church. The position of Catholics might be different however. That is not said with the intention of influencing anybody in any direction, but is simply an observation.

The Old Orthodox Prayer Book, Butler, and Soloviov are all quite worth-while.

Certainly the Fathers support Orthodoxy. They also support the importance of communion with the First among the bishops - the Pope. That said, one must add that any rapprochement between Catholicism and Orthodoxy would have been inconceivable without the patristic revival.

On that topic, here's a tip: the Ancient Christian Writers series from Catholic University is excellent; at all costs stay away from Di Ferrari!

And be patient. Everyone has a tendency to compare the best of one's preferred Church with the worst of some other Church - it's not a valid way to pursue the truth!

Fr. Serge

Welcome to the Byzantine Catholic forum !




Here is my view on the matter, and you can take it for what it's worth. I personally believe that the Church is Jesus Christ and everyone who is united with Him. Everyone who truly tries to follow Him by keeping His teachings --love God and love the neighbor-- is the Church. And that means, as He said, that on the Day of Judgement there will be surprises. And some of them will be quite happy surprises indeed.




With all due respect, that is not the obvious question. The question about the papacy, for now, is a distraction. Instead, the real obvious question is "How will you find spiritual fulfillment, personally and in your love and service to your family?"




Then don't go ! Stay Catholic. The Eastern Catholic Churches are several things; and one of them is being a living bridge between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. They have most of the Orthodox Tradition, but they are also in communion with the Bishop of Rome.




Amen !




This is where I need to say: talk to you local priest. Probably, you should talk to your local Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church priest. Tell him what you just told us. You are Catholic, you want to stay Catholic, but you are deeply attracted to the Eastern Church. He can help you from there.

I would also suggest saying the Jesus Prayer. There are many ways to say it -- just the name "Jesus" or with some extra words. The way I think might be helpful to you (at least, until you talk to your priest) is "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." You don't have to say it a lot of times; you just have to mean it when you say it. And He, Jesus, will teach you in the silence and stillness of your heart.

a sinner,

-- John

Glad--as you can see, you are very welcome to the forum. Now it's time to take the next step and ask more questions. Everyone can learn something from your questions. You may think they are silly or not deep enough. But in trying to formulate an answer to your question forces us to think about it. And we wind up learning something from the process. So help us by asking any question you can think of.

I think you are on the right track by attending an Eastern Rite Church. Feel free to ask the priest anything you have questions on. Priests love to talk shop, especially with someone who is truly interested in the subject at hand.

Tim

Hi Glad,
My family and I are canonically Roman Catholic, but we attend a Byzantine Catholic church. I understand how you feel, and I'm on a journey, like you, trying to figure out where I belong. I was baptized Eastern Orthodox (Armenian Apostolic), but was raised with zippo faith. I found the Catholic church, but did not realize there was an Eastern rite, so I went through RCIA in the Latin rite/ Roman rite. After a few years, I discoverd the old Latin Mass/ Tridentine rite. I felt more at home there than I did at the Novus Ordo Mass. We moved across the country & I discovered the Byzantine parish where we all go and are parishoners (for the last year and a half). I guess what I can say is that I really enjoy our parish. We have a solid priest who is personable & likes kids. Which may seem silly to some, but is really important when you have little ones. Our boys are 4 yrs, 3 yrs & 4 months. I enjoy the liturgy, the richness of it, the reverence, beauty, and that God is truly the focus of the liturgy. I really didn't like feeling like the focus was on a priest or other parishoners. It felt distracting.

So, anyway... (sorry about my rambling), I understand where you're at. My husband converted to Catholicism after I did and has always kind of "gone with the flow". In some ways I think I might be a little more concerned about where we attend church and how God is worshipped- so he knows its important to me. He kind of goes along, and then tends to embrace and dive deeper later- more laid back. While I'm the type that likes to learn as much as possible and dive right in. I also found that my boys really love the Divine Liturgy- so much to see, smell, hear, taste, sing- really keeps their attention. They love to pretend their altar boys or a priest & can sing many of the hymns as well. That, for me, is important too- that my boys enjoy & embrace their faith & how it is practiced. Another board member suggested Archbishop Joseph Raya's books. I've started reading "The Face of God". I have enjoyed it and I don't need to be an intellectual genius to understand it. So, maybe along with a lot of prayer, reading some good, simply worded (for a mommy brain, that is important!) books will help.

Does your family go with you to the Divine Liturgy at all? I know you mentioned they wouldn't change, but would they be willing to go with you to sort of just "go along" for the experience maybe? I know that, for me, it is so helpful when my husband and my children are there with me- whatever it may be. If your wife could go with you a few times, it would be nice to be able to discuss it with her & be able to pray about it together.

Well, this is another part that gets complicated. My husband only converted April 2007 to RCC. He really wasn't anything until then, baptized Methodist but never raised or practiced any faith. After years of attending Sunday Mass with me, after staunchly maintaining he'd never convert--he woke up one day (I was on the RCIA team for a few years) and asked why I couldn't just teach him at home. So we swapped seats: I stopped working in RCIA and he attended the classes (I had to stay home with our daughter). He knows where I'm at spiritually right now and told me he didn't want to make any changes, he was find going to Mass, receiving Communion and not delving deeply into anything else.

I don't attend the English speaking Divine Liturgy...of course a story behind that which I'll spare everyone of, but I attend the UGCC in Ukrainian and the Greek Orthodox DL is in, well, Greek with minimal English interspersed which I find helpful because I can make sure I'm "on the same page" as the others--not that there's more than 3 or 4 there during the weekday feast days. Point is, my husband and my 9 year old are not suited to sit through a Divine Liturgy they can't understand, and as of yet, I haven't found an English speaking one that is of the beauty of these two.

There's been good advice in these posts and I am reading them. Someone mentioned the obvious question wasn't the pope, but honestly, it is. At least for me it is. It is the critical issue. If I went with where I was "in my heart," it would mean a serious consideration of Orthodoxy at this time...so I have to use my head and reason along with my heart because it's too big to just do something like this without being sure based on what my heart is saying.

Glad

Hello...

Stop beating yourself up. Take a step back...and look at the whole picture...

Catholic Church and Orthodox Church are:

-Churches of Aposotlic Succession
-Have 7 Sacraments
-Have true Priesthood

So therefore, these two Churches are TRUE Churches.

That's all you need to know...and these things will norish your soul...mainly the Sacraments.

The differences between Eastern and Western Churches all boils down to semantics, really.

Just avoid Church politics...just FOCUS on spiritual growth...whatever it takes to help you get closer to G-d.

Okay?

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Glad,
Welcome. Speaking as someone who was in your shoes until a few years ago let me give you some quick suggestions.

1. Pray
2. Fast
3. Pray
4. Read as much as you can. There is a lot of really good information out there. I suggest Bp +Kallistos Ware's book on the Orthodox Church and Fr. Thomas Hopko's series on Orthodoxy (the latter is available online at the OCA website).
5. Pray
6. Attend services at both Catholic and Orthodox parishes as your circumstances permit. I suggest more than one of each so you get a sample of whats out there. Talk to the clergy.
7. Pray
8. Take some time off (I suggest a week if you can swing it) and go to a good Monastery for some serious prayer and spiritual discernment. There is a list of Orthodox monasteries here... http://omna.malf.net/
9. Pray
10. Follow the dictates of your conscience. All we can do is what we believe to be right as God gives us the light to discern right from wrong. That discernment should always be informed. But in the end we act on faith.

ICXC NIKA
John

Friend, I think it the part of prudence acknowledging, as you did, that an unguided heart can in no wise serve as sole criterion for your decision involving ecclesiastical commitment. What's more, I think you're spot on when you locate the real issue as revolving squarely around the Papacy. While reiterating the all-too-obvious need (pointed out by others) for deep & sincere prayer, I'd just like to toss in another book recommendation (sorry!): "The Eastern Churches & The Papacy" by S. Herbert Scott. It's no longer in print, and hard to come by, so try interlibrary loan. From what I understand, the author wasn't even Catholic, but his book argues powerfully (I think) for the consistency of the primitive and early medieval East's stance towards the See of St. Peter.

And I would submit that withholding knowledge of this your struggle from your spiritual father would be a *bad* idea. I know from experience. Pondering vexed questions like this incline one to an unhealthy introversion, to a self-imposed mental imprisonment. One can get a bad case of brain-knots. I know this experientially, having once agonizedly considered the very same question you do now, I might add; keeping the matter locked within my own mind conduced neither to my mental health nor my pursuit of objective truth.

I will keep you in my prayers, God bless.