www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Pictures of my church

Dear Orest,

I certainly understand where this comes from. Icono-graphy literally means "the writing of images." However, as I pointed out in my brief jesting post, photo-graphy comes from the same Greek structure "the writing of [an image] with light." We say in English I take a photograph, not I write a photograph. We could go through the same thing with cinematography. I make a motion picture, I do not write a motion picture. I think that the people who adopted the term "write icons" rather than the standard English language term "paint icons" (because, after all, what they iconographer does is use brushes and paint rather than a stylus and ink) are trying to make the point that iconography is different than any other sort of painting. So their hearts are in the right place, but they are not speaking standard English.

Fr David Straut

Dear Dr. Eric,

I cannot speak for Father David, but some think that 'write' sounds affected. Perhaps it is associated with people who are 'more Orthodox than thou', and that could certainly make it a turn off by association.

In Greek, iconography is 'eikonographia'.

'Graphia' means 'writing'/'grapho' means I write, so it does make perfect sense as a translation...but, then again, we could always say 'I graphed'!!!!

To each his own, I suppose.

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Fr. David,
I can see the point of your comparisons; however, as an Orthodox Slav I prefer to stand with the time honoured tradtions of my ancestors. I have mentioned that this is not a Greek Orthodox tradtion as strong as in the Slavic world.
There are many words and terms adopted in English by Orthodox in the English-speaking world.
Such as addressing a bishop as "Vladyka", sobornost and so on.
We are not trying to be "affected", we are merely following our traditions. Ukrainians began to emigrate to Canada in 1891 and we have many families of 5 and 6th generation in Western Canada who are still in our church and cherish our traditions.
Thus, I will continue to use the verb "write" in both English and Ukrainian in reference to icons.
Orest

Dr. Eric,
You are quite right indeed. Just consult Leonid Ouspensky's "The Meaning of Icons" and other Slavic theologians for confirmation.
God Bless,
Orest

The Eastern Catholic Byzantine churches down here around Atlanta all look very Eastern, especially the Melkite and Ukrainian ones. There's a Ruthenian one that is pretty Eastern as well. Can't think of anything "Latin" or "Western" about it.

Alexis

That's wonderful news Alexis. After seeing these pictures I wish I could visit some of these churches in person. I think there has been a revival in canonical iconography in both the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches since the 1970's.

Am I correct in saying the iconography from the early 1900's and 1920's in both churches in North America is in the Russian naturalistic or Imperical Court style that was popular in the Russian Empire from the 1880's on? In Canada I have seen all these prints in that style or oil paintings ordered from the St. Petersburg in the oldest churches. I just assumed it was the same in the USA.

How are the choirs in your area?

There is a popular but baseless notion that "writing" icons is the proper way to express in words what the iconographer does. It is possible that the poster put "wrote" in asterisks to indicate, correctly, that "iconographer" and "photographer" have the same root-verb, grapheo, but nobody says that photographers "write" their photographs!

Fr. Serge

Dear Orest,

You should do as you have been taught, of course. I see how important an issue this is to you and I have no desire to get you to come around to my way of thinking.

I would, however, say that this issue has more to do with the English language than it does with ethnic pride. If you chose to use the Ukrainian word for "write" in this context as though it were an English word, I could perfectly understand. I myself prefer to call a Bishop Vladika, Despota, or Sayidna rather than "Master," for what I think are obvious reasons. Similarly, I am quite happy with Orthodox terminology which is not really organically English (if there really could be such a thing! ) such as Theotokos, troparion, exapostelarion, epitrachelion, epitimia, etc. These words convey something with specificity and conciseness which more homegrown English words do not. I just don't see that the English word "write" is more appropriate that "paint" in this context. To each his own.

Sorry to belabour my points! Good fast to you!

Fr David Straut

Could you folks do me a favor? Apparently my photo of our picture of St. Luke has stirred up some controversy, violating some canon or rule or tradition on the proper placement of icons in the church.

Could those of you more knowledgeable than me comment on this?

Here is the controversy. [flickr.com] http://flickr.com/photos/8367250@N03/2072433569/

My teacher says "write" but also says she won't correct people who say "paint." What makes sense to one person makes none to another.

I guess the complaint is using the Glykophilousa (sweet kiss) instead of the hodegetria (Directress).

We are getting twelve new ones, i think they are going to be 2x3', of the feasts. Sayedna Raya had part of our church built so it resembles the shape of the Ten Commandments - it is that area they are going to be done.

Here's a picture of the iconostasis and sanctuary of the Melkite church in Atlanta:[Linked Image]

A picture of the Melkite church in Augusta:
[Linked Image]

And the Ruthenian church just outside Atlanta:
[Linked Image]

As you can see, all of these are relatively Eastern.

Alexis

The modern interpretation iconostasia are quite beautiful in the both photos...they still retain the basic stylistic elements while offering a new approach

...this is very common in Greek Orthodox churches in this country too...that is why I can't understand why modern RC churches don't take the traditional which they already have, whether it be Romanesque, Gothic, etc., and reinterpret these interiors in a new way that still remains true to the original.

Alice

Alice,

Very good points!

I do like very much the iconostas in the first picture of the Melkite church in Atlanta. I like the gold-leafed branches that connect the icons.

I can't really tell from that second photo what the Melkite church in Augusta's iconostas looks like.

Alexis