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Dear Lanceg,

And there are the Anglican Catholics who say they are even more orthodox than the "wishy-washy" Anglo-Catholics!

There is an Anglican Catholic website with all sorts of material online somewhere, including a scriptural Rosary and the like.

Alex

Cranmer's "eucharistic theology" was neither Lutheran nor Calvinist - he was essentially Zwinglian in the matter. In English, his teaching is often called "receptionism". I suggest a careful reading of the "Black Rubric" in the 1552 Book of Common Prayer.

There are several bases for the condemnation of Anglican Orders, and one of the most important is "defect of intention". As a result, anyone who has received Anglican ordination and later seeks recognition from Rome must not only demonstrate that the Bishop who ordained him was genuinely in the Apostolic Succession - as would certainly be the case if such a Bishop belonged to the Utrecht Union of Old Catholic Churches. He must also show that his own (Anglican) ordaining bishop had a sufficient intention to do what the Catholic Church does.

Fr. Serge

If the Anglican Communion had a serious interest in getting Rome to accept that there orders were now valid due to the "Dutch Touch", a press might have been made for it.

Interestingly, arguments against the "DT" even being good enough are mentioned and alluded to by folks not satisfied with the manner in which the Ultrajectines participated in Anglican ordinations. It is well outside my competence or paygrade to discuss - intelligently or otherwise - but I can at least link to a quote where it is brought up...

"Incidentally, the reason why Broadhurst, although he received a Dutch Touch, needs ordinatio sub conditione in order to bury the effects of Apostolicae Curae is that Rome definitely stated in 1948 that Accipe Spiritum Sanctum is NOT the form in the conferring of the episcopate; and what Dutch Touchers used to do was to impose both hands and say merely �Accipe Spiritum Sanctum�. Cardinal Gasparri and his contemporaries may have found ASS adequate, but the decision in re Graham Leonard (that �there is a doubt [merely] about the invalidation of his presbyteral orders�) makes clear that the Dutch Touch as we have experienced it since the 1920s is not good enough for the experts whose vota the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith took. I can see why�."

SEE: http://all2common.classicalanglican.net/? page_id=343

Of course I always worry that all the speculation about the matter can make us all look like we are approaching the level of "magic hands mystery" chasing...

But rather simply even with "pedigree" and the "dutch touch" & "polish pat" not all Roman objections disappear.

I for one am glad its not in my job description to decide these things!

This would not be hard to do, however, in the case of Anglo-Catholics or Anglo-Papalists. There are many in the C of E; and were more than a few in the American Episcopal Church up until recently.

That an Anglican minister provides High Church services does not necessarily prove anything about what he does or does not believe.

Fr. Serge

You're right Father--but it speaks volumes about what he believes.

Bless Father!

Ah, there's the rub!

Anglican Catholic clergy will believe and act as any other Catholic clergy just as if the 39 articles and Cranmer never existed. That is truly confusing but here is one example.

One Anglo-Catholic priest commemorated the souls in purgatory. Afterwards, it was pointed out to him that the 39 Articles of Religion condemned this practice as a vain and "fond Romish" thing.

To this he replied that he knew that, but that he invoked the "Anglican doctrine of purgatory" and not the Roman one . . .

The same applied to the veneration of Saints, relics etc.

There have been entire Anglican religious Orders that have left their jurisdiction when their local bishop forbade them to use candles in their worship and the like.

No wonder a number of them are crossing over to RCism or Orthodoxy . . .

Alex

Upon giving the matter my consideration, I decided to send my response to Alex - which I rather think he will enjoy - as a PM. What I wrote might disturb those who have no sense of humor.
Fr Serge

Wups! Alex doesn't accept PMs. His loss!

Bless, Father,



Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex

What a shame. I bet it was witty.

I do accept PMs... just sayin'

Simple

Dear Sinner (as we all are!),

I don't know how to get back on the PM bandwagon, being a technopeasant and as I am on good behaviour, don't want to rock the boat by asking anything further!

Alex (who knows all about sinning . . .)

In many of the blue states, the high church Anglican/Episcopalian parishes are the most "gay friendly", even rectors with live-in boyfriends.. they seem to like the pomp and grandiosity, but don't care for the doctrine and theology..

A Roman Catholic friend chuckled to me yesterday (well, chucked over Instant Messenger), that some Anglicans will go to great lengths to get Apostolic Succession as defined in Apostolicae Curae , but still won't convert.

Alexis

Sadly this is a growing trend. Most of the traditional Anglo-Catholics can only be found now in England, West Africa, and the Barbados. Traditional Anglo-Catholicism in America is well nigh dead...

Don't forget about the "Clown Liturgy's" and the Wiccan and Druid cerimonies in the National Cathedral. The Gay thing is just the tip of the iceberg that sank the Episcopal ship.