www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall 'Ukraine' or 'The Ukraine'

I figured this would be a pretty good place to ask...I've heard (The) Ukraine refered to as both 'Ukraine' and 'The Ukraine.' So now I'm wondering, which is it?

OH NO! TAKE COVER!!!!

Dear Brother, Many of us have been foolish enough to ask this same question and have lived to regret it!!! For the record, it is officially 'Ukraine'. 'The' connotes negative historical recollections.

In Christ,
Alice

I know it is officially Ukraine, but for some reason I can't just say "Ukraine". It comes out better for me as THE Ukraine. If it was UkraniA, it would be easier for me to say without the THE.

I agree with Alice. I remember a Ukrainian Catholic living with me in the dorms in college taking great offense when a Russian student used "The Ukraine".

However, historically, the definite artilce 'the' has been used, in many instances, for certain places to fit English grammatical usage. Let's take 'Ukraine' for example. The word 'Ukraine' roughly means 'borderland'. To to say in English, "We are going to borderland" would be incorrect hence the definite article. Another example would be "the Barbados". Most people don't realize that the word "Barbados" is actually in the plural and was originally called "la illha dos barbados" or "the island of the Bardados" or "the island of the bearded ones". Thus it retained the definite article for some time.

There are other places like this:
(in the singular) the Sudan, the Argentine, etc.
(in the plural) the West Indies, the Californias, etc.

In Spanish people still say "El Per�", "La Argentina", etc.
And in French we still hear "Vive la France!"

Now one could also point out that some place like England, which means "land of the Angles" has lost the definite article. This is absolutely correct. Over time, people forget the original meaning of a word, or it becomes so well-used, that the definite article is dropped. Since the word 'Ukraine' has been used in the English language for less than a hundred years, it is to be expected that some people will still use the definite article. However, we should be respectful (to some extent) of what people want their country to be called. I do, however, get frustrated by places like Burma/Myanamar (which alternates between the two every few years).

Please excuse the typos above. The words should read Barbados and Myanmar

In Ukrainian and every Slavic language I have ever encountered there are no articles. Meaning there are not words for 'the' 'a' 'an' etc. So if the regions language is taken into consideration then this should answer your question as to why 'the' should be omitted.

Furthermore, in English, to say 'the Ukraine' can imply to some that it is not an independent country but rather a region of another country.

Maybe calling Ukraine 'Kyiven Rus' would solve this?

Where's Yaroslav the Wise when you need him?

Note: To my fellow Ukes, the last two lines are jokes.

Monomakh

To which group do you think Ukraine belongs:

Group A - single coutries

(1) Uganda
(2) Uruguay

Group B

(1) The United States
(2) The United Kingdom

Although most Ukrainians would like Ukraine to belong to Group B, in reality it belongs to group A since Ukraine is not a federated state (or multiple kingdoms) but rather a single country.

Russian Imperialists believed that Ukraine was simply a region of the Russian Empire (and it was for almost 300 years) and therefore used the term 'The' before Ukraine.

I.F.

When Yushchenko was poioned before winning the election, I remember reading "the Ukraine" in many place. It seems a common mistake for Westerners to make.

as for me/ not -english man /looks better The Ukraine //show spiritual wealth and great culture and nation , people whose roots are from this Land

English is a linguistic mongrel. Some names of countries came in via French, which finds it normal to use the definite article as a prefix in such cases. One will still find older people, for example, who will say "The Lebanon". Odd.

Nowadays relatively few English-speaking people are fluent in French, so there is no reason to retain this particular usage.

Fr. Serge

Over the years, I have met many a wise guy.

But very few few wise men. Very few.

More wise women than men, I think, but still, very few.

But no Yaroslav. The closest I came was reading something by Jaroslav Pelikan.

Dear Friends,

The Republic of Ukraine, if you must. But otherwise "Ukraine."

However, it doesn't really bother me if someone says, "The Ukraine" in all innocence.

Especially if that someone is from the former Royal Colonies of British North America (aka "the United States of America").

And, remember, my fellow Americans, it's never too late to come back home!

Alex

Dear Two Lungs,

That's "Saint Yaroslav the Wise" now - he was glorified a saint in recent times, although he was always venerated locally in the Kyivan area as a saint (as were the Princes Mykola-Askold and Dir).

Alex

Never say "The Ukraine".
Never spell Kyiv as Kiev.
Never spell L'viv as Lvov or Lwow, you'd have to be incredibly old to say Lemberg though.
Never say "Little Russian". A friend of mine said if he's ever referred to as Little Russian, he refers back to the person responsible as a Muscovite.

Things could be worse.

I know of a wonderful woman, of Scotch-Irish/Quebecois ancestry, who, after nearly twenty years marriage to a Ukrainian man, just doesn't get it. (or maybe she's just trying to get his goat?)

She loves pyrohy and the other foods, and the Icons and the pysanky, so they always go the the Church festivals and bazaars.

BUT...

She always refers to it as "going to the RUSSIAN Church."

No amount of explaining seems to make a difference in her head.

So far as I know, she has not yet been beaten by the Babas.

We shall see.... It could be worse.