www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West East and West: Different Religions?

Alex,

Part of the problem here is that when we speak of the IC we are speaking of more than just the event of Mary's conception. It's not so much the conception part as the immaculate part--preneporochna--that we see and honor as one of Mary's most exalted and revered titles.

I've heard a number of comments by EOs (not necessarily on this forum) to the effect that the Filioque--simply as a theologoumenon--is evidence enough that the RCC is a heretical group. Certainly, when taken out of its Augustinian context and transplanted into the theology of the Cappadocian Fathers, it just doesn't work.

It would certainly be a gesture indicating that the RCC is really serious about reunion, and gestures are important--ordinary people understand gestures much better than they understand theological nuances.

Unfortunately, there would need to be a great deal of catechesis on this issue before it could be done without producing a major uproar among the RC faithful, most of whom are unaware that there's any kind of problem with this term in the first place.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Dear Father Deacon,

Your comment on the IC reminds me of the article by Evhen Ivankiw of Sts Volodymyr and Olha parish (Tserkovny Visnyk) way back when on this same issue.

He argued that our liturgical texts not only call the Theotokos "Preneporochna" or "Most Immaculate" but also "Vseneporochna" or "Ever or Always Immaculate" as evidence that the East always accepted Mary's sinless and exalted Conception and indwelling by the Holy Spirit - as you said so eloquently.

If St Dmitri of Rostov had no problem with it, why should we?

Cheers,

Alex

Nor for the Greek Catholics who later came into communion through the Union of Brest - neither Florence nor Lyon are even mentioned in the terms of the Union of Brest (the Fathers knowing well the unrest those caused within the lands of Rus'), and the first article is itself quite telling:


I think if our communion hinged only on an absolute adherence to the Council of Florence, Rome would not have been able to ratify and bless the Union with this language "not from two sources and not by a double procession, but from one origin, from the Father through the Son" which is certainly in agreement with the Cappadocian Fathers.

Bless, Father DIAKone,

Thank you!

When it is said, "From the Father through the Son," is this the Eternal Procession of the Spirit within the Most Holy Trinity or the temporal sending of the Spirit from the Father?

Does it make a difference? Could it be both?

Alex

or the Orthodox Church as a whole for that matter...

Yes Job, he spoke for the entire Orthodox Church unlike the Ecumenical Patriarch, who some would say, sold the EOC a bad bill of goods!

To the origonal question I think in interesting to note the following.
There is a bridge which stands the exact same distance, height and other demensions as the london bridge. It is the same color and made of the same stone. But it is not the London bridge. It is lacking a key thing. London. At one time it was. At least the far majority of it was. But today it is not the London bridge. In fact it is not in London nor in England. A brief look at a map will find that it is not even in the same continent or hemisphere. It is in Arizona.
After thinking that the bridge they had could no longer meet there needs the people of London sold the bridge to the highest bidder and it was dismantled and moved ten thousand miles away to Arizona. It was then rebuilt to resemble what it was in London. Does that make it the way from Southwark to the City of London?
So it is for the Uniate. Falsely feeling their Church was no longer meeting their needs they disassembled their comunions and attempted to recreate them in Rome. They were not aware that in doing so they lost the way from earth to heaven and mistakenly lead others to think that they are of the Holy Apostolic and Orthodox Church. They persuade others to think that they are of the mind of the Orthodox, but they cannot be, for the mind of the Orthodox is none othere than the Holy and Consubstantial Trinity. She is animated by the Holy Spirit. Thus she is perfect and complete lacking nothing, and all who leave communion with her leave communion with God himself. Appart from God there is only hell.

"They persuade others to think that they are of the mind of the Orthodox, but they cannot be, for the mind of the Orthodox is none othere than the Holy and Consubstantial Trinity. She is animated by the Holy Spirit. Thus she is perfect and complete lacking nothing, and all who leave communion with her leave communion with God himself. Appart from God there is only hell."

WOW! I'd like to say I've never heard or read this before but it seems all too prevalent, at least in cyberspace, among other places.


Bill...doomed to hell?

Dear Bill,

Unfortunately, and I say this with all due respect to the personhood of Surgei, the internet attracts and even exacerbates this type of fundamentalist mindset...

and what is so sad, is that this mindset often comes across as the opposite of what it thinks it is espousing.

Rather than Christ's love, it displays hatred, rather than humility, it displays arrogance.

A saintly Bishop in Cyprus who was taken from an Athonite monastery, was asked about this. His answer was both truthful and charitable..he said that he believes that such people simply display a lack of 'spiritual maturity'.

As you know, and I say this because I respect your Christian depth and your Christian heart, it takes a certain amount of humility to reach the type of spiritual maturity that values and honours others who are different than ourselves as icons of Christ...

So please, pay no mind. I hope that you know by now that MOST Orthodox are not like that.

In Christ,
Alice, Moderator

Thank you so much for those good words, Alice. Sometimes this forum gets so mean-spirited and hurtful, that those who might be looking to us for help in discerning the truth might just run the other way thinking, "Why do I need Christianity? I can find hatred in the world." So, from myself anyway, please know that my prayers and thanks are yours!

Alice: You did well to ban this poster. I can be pretty opinionated myself and am immovably Catholic in my beliefs,
but know that the mercy of God is immesurable, for He is good
and loves mankind, as the DL teaches us again and again. How else
could any of us sinners be saved? His mercy endureth forever. May the Holy Spirit enlighten Sergei's mind and heart that he may understand the Gospel. He seems to be but a child in the Faith. May the Most Holy Theotokos teach and guide him, for she is good and gentle and knows what sons are like.

Praised be Jesus Christ.

Edmac

Dear Alice,

I too thank you for the kind words. As a convert from Protestantism, these are the kinds of arguments that they find convincing when others begin looking at the Orthodox/Catholic Faith. Not that that is a legitimate argument, BUT I distinctly remember my former Protestant Minister saying, "They can't even agree among themselves, much less get a long, why would anyone consider that they have the truth".

Your words are always a source for the hope of unity between East and West.

Your Brother in Christ,
Aaron

Dear Alice,

Such thoughts and beliefs come from all sides... Catholic, Orthodox, Evangelical, Pentecostal and from whomever and wherever.

I ponder this and come to the conclusion the raiment is rent, as mortal men we are failing the Church. It seems to me that unity itself would only breed more disunity.

I find myself pondering the words of Pilate, "What is truth?", in Latin "QUID EST VERITAS?". An anagram of this is "EST VIR QUI ADEST"(It is the man who stands before you).

Christ is Truth. Christ is Love. Sometimes it can simply be that simple. I have come to believe the righteous will be judged by their righteousness. I follow my path in the Catholic Church and pray for God's great mercy that I may be found worthy.

In Christ,
Bill

Bill (and others),

I wanted to respond sooner, but taking care of the issue of Surgei has kept myself and the admin tied up until now. Unfortunately, hatred is sometimes veiled in the name of religion and God. I remember an adage from when I was in school, "A little bit of knowledge can be dangerous". Unfortunately, this would have to apply to this person and others of his ilk, no matter what church they profess allegiance to.

No matter the amount of apologies and conciliatory gestures, some would rather blindly believe their hatred is the path towards salvation instead of the words and instructions of our Savior. The administrators earnestly try to screen new members in hopes that all that come here are sincere about learning about and from each other. Sometimes unfortunately, we get what you have seen earlier. They have no place here, and their views represent nothing that which their respective churches teach. Take that for what it is worth.

So if we can, let us get back to the topic at hand.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

Indeed, good Father. For my part,I love the Orthodox people and
love Orthodoxy since you and we both profess the Holy Trinity,
one in essence, and undivided, and both proclaim the truths of the Creed of Nicea-Constantinople. Our mutual beliefs are vastly
greater than our differences. Looking around us, we unhappily
find so many who do not so believe. Let us bear witness to them
together.

Edmac