www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Second Antiphon

3 hours would be a hierarchal liturgy. Btween 2 and 2 1/2 would be about right for a Liturgy of St John Chrysostom done without omissions and a deacon.

Is the point of the Divine Liturgy for us to have bragging rights as to how long we stand in worship? This seems to be getting off the track of WHY we even celebrate the Divine Liturgy!!!

Well, I'm trying to stick around to help invoke change. Like helping to make sure Latinizations are being removed, and helping to sew the veil and such. However, that was pre-RDL and now I continue to grow weary. I don't think the Great Fast will be good for me, or my conscience. My family already wants to move to Orthodoxy, but I keep stalling. I know the Bishop just wants us to go away, and sadly we may.

Thanks for fighting with us Slavipodvizhnik, you are a true friend. Maybe there is some "Jewel" in your future after all!

Your missing the point Steve. What I'm seeing is a trivialization of the Sacred. One can't give a few hours out of the week to God? Is Sunday afternnon football more important than God? I'm not yelling at you, but just voicing my frustration at what I'm reading and hearing about. Why is everyone trying to cater to the lowest common denominator. if people gripe about a 2 hour liturgy, let them gripe. If they leave, what have you lost? One can lead a horse to water but one cannot make him drink. Present the fullness of the Divine Services to the flock. if they reject them, the sin be upon their head.

No, but I was just commenting on how long the Divine Liturgy is that I attend and possibly that Fr. Sid doesn't omit any of the Antiphons. As I'm still a relative newbie, I can't really tell. But if you say that by omitting Antiphons it allows a Liturgy to be over in under an hour, then we worship for about 1:45:00 on any given Sunday.

Maybe this isn't a common practice throughout the Metropolia...

I never understood how abbreviation = Latinization. Nor is this confined to the Byzantien Metropolia, the Orthodox are not without their abbreviations either.

Whether the Liturgy is 1 hour or 3 hours the Holy Spirt is at work, the bread and wine are transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ, and we are divinized. I wish more concentrated on the chairos rather than the kronos of Liturgy. Complaining about how short or bragging about how long Liturgy is is what is sad to me.

Fr. Deacon Lance

It's not about how much time Liturgy takes. It's about chopping up he Divine to accommodate those with minute attention spans and acute cell phone deprivation. If you can do the full Divine Liturgy in 15 minutes, well may God Bless you! But to give the Divine services the respect that they rightfully deserve, time should be of no concern whatsoever.

Shortening the services because of the people is something that has been going on for a very long time. The short Anaphora of St. John Chrysostom replaced the very long Anaphora of St Basil as the regularly used one. St. Simeon of Thessalonika abbreviated the many antiphons of the Cathedral Vespers done to one full antiphon and a few abbreviated ones. St. John Maximovitch reduced the Kathismata of Sunday Matins to one Psalm for each Kathisma. The Russians regularly reduce the Typical Pslams to a few verses rather than recite the entire Pslams. The Greeks eliminate the Psalms completely reciting on the responses and we can go on and on. So time has always been something of a concern even for our saintly fathers.

Father Deacon Lance, let us be clear, lest those who read your words come away with a false impression. Yes the Saintly Fathers DID abbreviate certain services. The very long MONASTIC SERVICES. The All Night Vigil that literally lasted ALL NIGHT LONG. This was done as a concession to the laity. I'll tell you what. You mentioned St John and the Sunday order of Matins. I'm sure that there are those of the BCC persuasion who would be OVERJOYED to have those abbreviated Sunday Matins! Because now THEY HAVE NOTHING!

It is one thing to accommodate the frailty of the laity with concessions to the Services, particularly those which can be wearisome to those who are not monastics. It is another thing to chop up the Divine Liturgy so people can fulfill their requirement in 60 minutes or less. That is the issue.

Alexandr

In regard to Vespers and Divine Liturgy together, it is clear that this is Byzantine tradition. The question that one may agree or disagree with is whether this combination is to be extended beyond Christmas, Theophany and Pascha or not. Because it is an authentic part of tradition, I feel uncomfortable with attaching a name to them like "vesperergy," etc. What is complete Vespers has varied through history. In 2008, when Theophany comes on Sunday, the typicon calls for a Vespers which ends with the Angel of Peace Litany, and the Bowing of Heads, and the litija, aposticha etc. are transferred to Compline. This hints at a bit of flexibility here. The Asmaticos Vespers of Constantinople was quite different until the Sabbas form of Vespers was adopted in the 13th century. While one may oppose the extension of the Vespers-Liturgy combination beyond Pascha, Theophany and Christmas, more care should be taken in how we describe these combinations.

Alexandr,

In many BCC parishes liturgies are even less than one hour (45 minutes). Shortened liturgies are now common and I do not see this trend changing anytime soon. Too many priests believe if they don't take short cuts (pre-cut bread for proskomedia,shortened antiphons, short sermons, etc.) the laity won't come to services.

Ung

I totally agree. Abbreviation is contrary to the traditional Latin Rite as well. With the exception of the Holy Week liturgies, a High Mass is unvariably an hour-and-a-half. Unless, of course, you have some amazingly long musical setting for the ordinary like some of the early English Renaissance Masses of Taverner, Tallis, Fayrfax, &c. The rule before the changes of the 1960s was that anything added to the Roman Rite should NEVER be removed from it.

Abbreviation = Modernization is a more fitting equation.

As for the pure, unadulterated Byzantine-Slavic Rite, I am already somewhat familiar with it from having attended the local ROCA/ROCOR parish on many occasions. But thank you for the offer.

I was just curious why the Ukrainian Catholics ommitted things. The funny thing about the parish near me is that while the liturgy is in Ukrainian on Sunday mornings, the choir is clearly making the responses in Church Slavonic.

Since when are the Typical Psalms or Antiphons part of monastic services? These are common abbreviations in the Liturgy among the Orthodox. The very long Anaphora of St. Basil was once used every Sunday. It was replaced by the very short Anaphora of St. John for all but 10 times a year. Again the Liturgy not a monastic service.

As to abbreviations to the Liturgy, one need only read Protopresbyter Alexander Schmemann's response to his bishop's direction on what not to omit or Bishop Tikhon's Litugical Order #1 to show that abbreviations and omissions of the Liturgy are common among even the Orthodox .

http://www.jacwell.org/Supplements/liturgical_practices.htm

http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/tikhon.lit1.html

Amen brother!

My Father tells me constantly that they are out of church within 50 minutes. I can remember that when I was BC.

I regularly spend 90 minutes every Sunday. (OCA. I haven't attended a ROCOR service yet,) That's just standard Liturgy. Add a Panihida, we're talking almost two hours. The point here is if the Romans are in and out in under an hour, we have to do it too.

I've never spent more time in church in my life as I have in the past year, and I love every minute of it. I always wonder what the faithful of the BCC would do if tomorrow they had to be Orthodox and actually spend some time in church. The Roman ranks would probably swell quite a bit.