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Amado, if what you say is the case, then we have been canonically lied to about the nature and meaning of sui iuris by Rome, that Lumen Gentium and Orientale Lumen speaking about the respect of Rome for particular churches are also meaningless. As in this case when it really comes down to it, we have no say or ability to govern ourselves at the higher levels at all. Nor even at the lower levels of selecting bishops in the diaspora of our own churches.

And when it comes down to it Rome can and will act regardless of what is the best spiritually, theologically, and ecclesiastically for her "church" in question, in this case the UGCC. I no longer buy all of this talk of gratuitous and now seemingly fictitious concern by Rome. Why someone as biased about the situation as Kasper and Maj were put in the driver's seat on this is beyond me.

As I have said before, even recently, Ostpolitik is alive and well, in this newest reincarnation. The specter of the Quadripartite Commission still hangs on the horizon.

It is clear from the AGI report I cited on another thread early on that when Kasper met with Metropolitan Kyrill, days before Alexei, that the deal was sealed regarding Rome's no-go to the Patriarchate. I think the whole point of Kasper meeting with Kyrill on the 19th was for Alexei to screen out any possible renigging of Rome on the pre-made deal by Kasper and Kyrill. Some want to question the validity of this report but it appears now that it was well founded.

But I also think Rome and especially Kasper and his lurking cohort Maj completely underestimated the response of the UGCC.

If ever a case envisioned by the CCEO fit the determination of the erection of a new Patriarchate, it is clearly the UGCC given its size, structure, and development.

Excuse our indignation at the elder Rome over our treatment here. Our umbrage at the MP is great, no doubt. But we also are miffed since our "mother" (adopted at that) is apparently selling us down the river for an ecumenical dialogue that is already nearly non-existent.

Why one Cardinal is favored over another who is actually the hierarch of our Church, and why this other cardinal is representing us and not our own, is another frustrating mystery. Obviously if Cardinal Husar having reached the status of Cardinal should make him trustworthy and capable of fidelity in Rome's eyes? This is especially difficult for me to comprehend with your reasoning.

What kind of deal would that be?

I think Moscow is abusing of JPII's good will (this is understandable, given the tryumphalistic attitudes of some people in the Vatican, who us JPII was their instrument for that).

I doubt the MP is willing to dialogue with Rome about major issues of the faith, or trying to restore unity between Catholics and Orthodox. The dialogue does not promiss anything, and the Ukrainians will miss a great opportunity of restoring their historical Patriarchate.

Was it that obvious whom I was quoting?! I didn't know it was in the public domain--this was a private conversation we had last night and I didn't want to get him in trouble.

As for the bad manners, that is the understatement of the year. Let's call it for what it is: a grave sin. Which raises the question: how many of us have written to Rome yet? I've got a barn-burner of a letter floating around in my head I'd like to send to Kasper the Unfriendly Ghost....

Adam,

were you in our neck of the desert, or was Fr. Doctor in your neck of the woods? BTW, how is the good Fr. Doctor doing these days?

One quick clarification on the Pre-Chalcedonian definition. Alex, maybe you just made a typo, but just in case I wanted to make sure everyone understands the Pre-Chalcedonian postition accurately and that there's no misunderstanding. The phrase used by St. Cyril of Alexandria and the Pre-Chalcedonians is "One Nature of the Incarnate Word", meaning One Nature having both Divine and Human properties, neither property swallowing up the other, without confusion, mingling,or alteration. The Pre-Chalcedonians make it quite clear that they condemn Eutychianism and they are not Monophysites. They believe our Lord is perfect in His Humanity and perfect in His Divinity, without confusion, mingling, our alteration. They do NOT believe that His Divinity overshadows or swallows up His humanity. The Coptic Orthodox Church emphatically chants this at every Liturgy, repeating Amen, Amen, Amen.

Alex, thanks for all your contributions to this forum. God bless you, and I sincerely would enjoy meeting you someday.

No, Fr. AC, unhappy with the strength of the American dollar and all the sun and heat of Arizona, decided to come up to Ottawa and freeze his butt off for a few weeks Actually he's here for one of his regular visits to see his students (such as I) and also prepare for an evaluation of our graduate programs by the provincial granting authority.

There is a papal nuncio present at all UGCC synods. This IMHO provides the Vatican with two versions of the 'group dynamics' and validity of their final resolutions. Perhaps Maj was placed next to Kasper's side to ensure that the Holy Father was given 'two versions of the group dynamics' with the Moscow Patriarch.

In 1991 while the Soviet Union was rapidly comming apart, President George Bush visited Kiev (as it was known then ) and pleaded with the Ukrainian Soviet Rupublic government not to separate and establish an independant nation. The Ukrainian diaspora community was outraged that President Bush could be so openly pro 'evil empire' when his predecessor President Ronald Regan did everything possible to bring down the Iron Curtain and free the captive nations.

Was President Bush really pro 'evil empire' or was he simply doing his part in attempting to be perceived as being an ally of the Reformists (Perestroijka) and not anti Russian Empire ?
There is now ample evidence to support that contrary to what many believed at the time - it was the latter. Almost the day after the declaration, the USA, Germany, Canada (etc..) were doing all possible to support the independance of Ukraine.

IMHO, the Vatican is using the same tactic. It can't be perceived as being anti-MP, but in reality, the father Taft's conclusion was probably reached by many Vatican officials some time back. There will never be true ecumenical dialogue with the yet to be destalinized ROC. True reforms, the type which are occuring in Ukrainian society will have to take place first. This will take several pontificates - if ever.

Will the Vatican ex-communicate the UGCC for having declared a Patriarchate ?

NO WAY !

The UGCC represents the single largest group of Christians in the ex-Soviet sphere who are in communion with Rome. The Vatican will not risk cutting the links to the UGCC, the only church in the ex-Soviet sphere in full communion with them. If they did, there would be an immediate about face on the part of the EP to establish communion , so it just will not happen. The ROC would approve this move because they would immediately begin negotiations for a 're-absorbtion'.

Also, there are many Vatican hierarchs who sympethize with the Patriarchate and they would never support ex-communication.

There will probably be a quiet tacit approval of the UGGC's synodal self declaration of the Patriarchate.

Would the Vatican cut financial aid to the UGCC ?

NO WAY !

The same risks would be involved as mentioned above, and for this reason aid would not be cut. In fact, if there was a merger of the three Orthodox Churches, IMHO, the aid would grow proportionally. Remember, the two largest donators of foreign aid, including Christian charities, are the USA and Germany. Both have been, and will continue to be very supportive of the UGCC. There will be no directives from the Vatican to do otherwise.

I do agree that it would be better to have a Christian democratic president who was pro UGCC Patriarchate in power before any declarations are made.

I wanted to correct a mistake I made yesterday (03-13-04) when I was stating the phrase used by St. Cyril and the Pre-Chalcedonians. The phrase should read "One Nature of God the Incarnate Word."

Forgive the error.

Dear Dunstan,

You are forgiven, my son . . .

Alex

I also believe that if a patriarchate is proclaimed in the near future, Rome will not excomunicate the Ukrainian Greek Catholics. They may say to the world that they do not agree with it but they'll have to accept it. The UGCC is just to big for them to shove off and the UGCC is even bigger than some of the Orthodox churches as well.
Lauro

Since when does size matter......

Dear Anton,
Size does matter and it always has, like it or not. There's a difference when you are speaking of a church with let's say 100,000 to a church with let's say about 6 million. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that a church with 100,000 should be neglected nor put aside but I believe it does make a difference.For some reason size shows strenght, that is, the bigger you are supposedly the stronger you are. Why is the Vatican so worried about Moscow? Size, and nothing more. I think it's just simple mathematics. I don't agree with it but it's true.
Lauro

Dear Lauro,

Lest you and I be called "anti-Russian" here, as our dear Administrator has called me personally in the past, I think we should take a moment to state that we honour the Russians as our brothers.

And we do so emphatically because we can choose our friends . . .

The fact is that both Ukie Catholics and Ukie Orthodox present a major problem to the MP in terms of the very size issue you discuss.

Ukraine presents a good solid chunk of Russian Orthodox ecclesial holdings.

Should Ukraine, as an ecclesial territory, become formally and totally lost to the MP - it would represent a major ecclesial and economic blow to it, like it or not.

That is why . . .

Alex

Dear Administrator,
I'm going to take Alex's advise.
"OK!!. The Russians are our brothers". I've said it.
But that doesn't give them the right to do what they've done to us, continue doing and intend on doing.
Lauro

Posted by Subdeacon Randolph(Diak):

Rome is not committing lies here nor is it perpetuating them. I thought the term "sui juris" affords the different Eastern Catholic Churches "self-governance" correspondingly to their respective institutional capability?

Patriarchal Churches certainly differ from Major Archbishoprics, from Metropolitanates, and down the line.

I think Rome is trying to deal with reality and not with what should be.

And, additionally by Subdeacon Randolph:

The Holy Father personally appointed Cardinal Kasper as President of the PCPCU and, as such, the Cardinal represents Rome in all matters concerning ecumenical dialogues.

For sure, His Eminence does not have the final say on any resolution of UGCC's situation but his recommendations do carry a lot of weight. Unless, in the meantime, he is replaced by the Pope with somebody to UGCC's liking!

If the UGCC feels a bad karma because of Fr. Maj, His Beatitude, Cardinal Husar, should talk with Cardinal Kasper about it and have him replaced pronto.

Even with the above "re-assignment" of Vatican personnel, does the UGCC have enough gumption to deal directly with the MP?

From what has transpired so far, I think the MP will sit up and take notice of the UGCC only if the entire Ukrainian Church once again becomes whole: all factions (UOC-MP, UOC-KP, UAOC, and the UGCC) re-uniting to form the Ukrainian Orthodox Church with one set of hierarchy.

Rome then will let the UGCC chart its own destiny.

AmdG