www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West unity of Catholic and Orthodox Churches is urgent

Alex,

I believe that working together to witness to Christ is what builds communion. It's a little like what St. James wrote, "... show me your faith without works, and I by my works will show you my faith." (Jas. 2:18) Just as the works not only manifest the faith, but actually help to bring it about, so it is with the unity of faith.

I think we've come a long way in our understanding of schism since that time, although I think Rome will ultimately have to concede that the "defect" in the EOC that is caused by her being separate from Rome, similarly affects the RCC in her being separate from Constantinople.

All doctrine has both a divine component and a human one. The divine component is perfect, life-giving and unifying, while the human component--is not. The dogmatic "additions" developed in the West since 1054 are couched in theological terms that are foreign to the East. One clear example of this is in the IC, where "the merits of Christ were applied to Mary in advance" and she was "preserved from all stain of original sin." This does not mean the doctrine is untrue, only that its expression is imperfect.

I think the RCC has already officially abandoned the notion that the EOC has to "submit" to anything in this regard. What is needed, however, is a common expression that will facilitate a common witness. (Witness, moreover, is a phenomenon that works both outwardly and inwardly--it is the inward witness that causes the members of the Church to gain an ever-deeper understanding of what the Church is all about.)

(An example of an existing common expression is the fact that the East has long ago accepted the Western expression "three persons, one substance" as equivalent to "three hypostases, one ousia"--even though the meaning of the word hypostasis is closer to that of substance than to that of person.)

Great idea!

If a council were called next week, the documents would probably take about three years to draw up, and then--who knows?

I think it would be great if the pressure to have a council were to come from the people.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Dear Father Deacon Richard,

Above is really your best writing ever, thoughtful and thought-provoking!

I hope you are ordained a priest one day - and if you don't like the new liturgical language of the BC Church, the UGCC will always welcome you with open arms!

Alex

Richard, you noted, "I think it would be great if the pressure to have a council were to come from the people." That might work from the EOC end (witness St. Mark of Ephesus), but you seem to be forgetting that the RCC and the vatican operate from the top down!

Dear JohnZonaras,

An important point and distinction to be made!

Holy Venerable and God-Bearing Father, St Mark of Ephesus, Defender and Pillar of Orthodoxy, pray unto God for us!

Alex

Yet, it was in Pius XIIs Munificentissimus Deus that he writes that only after the vast multitudes of letters from the whole Catholic World did he promulgate the Dogman of the Assumption.

John,

Perhaps that's one of the things that will have to change before unification can be accomplished!

Seriously, though, I find it hard to square this "top down" (or more accureately, always top down and only top down) approach with the Gospel message, particularly Lk. 2:51: What I see here is not so much a "democratic" notion of authority as a "familial" one, in which every member is attentive to every other member, and respectful of each one's unique role as something ordained by God!


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Dear Father Deacon,

Yes, would that church hierarchies become more in tune with the Gospel!!

Alex

While this may be a good thing for you Eastern Catholics, this would be disasterous for us Latins. There are too many local abuses that the Holy See needs to crack down on at present. I couldn't even imagine what it would be like if the local bishops had more power.

However bishops should be held in check by their fellow bishops and metropolitans, and if that does not happen then the Papacy has the right to intervene and straighten things out.
Bishop have the authority in their own diocese, this is a Latin belief also. The Pope only steps in when necessary.
Stephanos I

Exactly, but sadly the Holy See hasn't been doing much of that in recent years.

Please note that what I am advocating here is not only authority to the local bishop, but accountability as well.

This doesn't mean that a bishop should have to answer to the people for every decision he makes--that simply wouldn't work--but there should be a canonically established forum by which a bishop can be called to account if enough people feel this is warranted.

Of course, the people would have to be "on their toes" as well--but that's part and parcel of being a faithful Christian.

You might well reply that the Orthodox have no such forum. I would have to answer no, but they do have a tradition of seeing the ordinary, lay Christians as guardians of the Faith--something akin to Newman's "sensus fidelium."


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Byzantophile perhaps that is because we are living in such troubled times.
Stephanos I

Very true. But I think that we are also at a cross road and could head either way...

Amen and .. amen.

We have to recognize these past mistakes. 'Them days' need to be long gone.

And I agree that a direction toward what usnity can be had with Protestants should be made.

Alex ... (lets get crazy) should we here create a 'road plan' and put it together and actually publish it?? and put our names and affiliations to it? or at least a 'Manifesto Toward Union'

Do you think we could do that??

Let's get nuts!

-ray

Did someone say "the cows are coming home"?