www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West East and West: Different Religions?

Father Anthony,

That's why this is such a great forum! In many other internet sites, they just don't have the dedicated, knowledgeable people who can and will step in in cases like this.

Thanks to you and to all the people who make "The Byzantine Forum" possible!


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Alice is absolutely right. I have known many Orthodox Christians over the years in person and of them only one has approached the attitude of Surgie. Orthodox in general, are more patient, compassionate towards those of other beliefs, and just plain old FRIENDLY than other brands of Christians. I have been tempted to "dox" for this reason but think I have settled on remaining RC for the time being, in the hopes that some kind of reunion or at least greater mutual respect between the Apostolic Churches can be garnered in the not so distant future.

It seems that the internet can present too easy an outlet for those of highly self-opinionated and bent minds to express themselves. I applaud our excellent moderators for their charity and orthodoxy. It cannot be said frequently enough that they have the most undesirable position in the forum, that of having to make judgment calls on who is and who is not "fit" to post here. I for one do not envy their position at all and am perfectly content to be a humble poster.

Jason

Getting back to the original subject of this thread:
In answer to this challenge, I would have to contend that we have to get back to the fact that first of all, faith is a gift of God, and that secondly, the object of our faith is God Himself--not any one creed or set of doctrines.

From this perspective, it is obvious that we are NOT talking about "two different faiths," but only about different expressions of that Faith. We do not profess faith in the Church Fathers or St. Gregory Palamas--important as these may be--and the Latins do not profess faith in Augustine or Aquinas. In fact, the last thing any of these teachers would have wanted to do is become a focal point in themselves, instead of guiding and directing us toward the one Teacher, who is Christ (cf Mt. 28:10).

As St. Paul put it: If we can keep this in mind, we won't have to question whether East and West are really "two different faiths!"


Peace,
Deacon Richard

An excellent answer Deacon Richard. Thank you!

Jason

I think the East/West distinction doesn't really make sense. Where does the "East" start and end? What exactly is the "West"?

What I see is a common Christian culture which many sides compose, in other words one Christendom with the primary differentiator being distinct liturgical traditions.

Dear AMM,

Another excellent comment!

(Should there be a bell here that can be activated every time we get great posts like this?)

Alex

How do you define East? Catholic east or Orthodox east? You cannot say that the Orthodox east is the same as the catholic east.


Amm, you noted, "What I see is a common Christian culture which many sides compose, in other words one Christendom with the primary differentiator being distinct liturgical traditions. " You can certainly apply this to the Catholic east, but most Orthodox would bridle at the idea of a common Christian culture and would make the case that there are more differences than similarities. The liturgical differences are skin deep. Philosophical/theological issues run deep and the divide is wide.

I can a certainly appreciate and understand your opinion, and can equally acknowledge that mine may not be shared by many. Is the glass half empty or half full? Either answer in its own way is in some way correct. Perhaps you can say the philosophical/theological issues do run deep and wide, but maybe you could say the average experience, attitudes and beliefs of most Orthodox and Catholic people are basically the same; or that the experiences, devotion and examples of the saints of both churches are really very much alike and that these latter points outweigh the former ones.

I don't have the answers. I can only say from my vantage point I see one Christendom, which neither side in this case has an exclusive hold on. Perhaps that is an opinion that both sides would in fact reject.

Your answer was honest and understandable. In your last sentence, I think you came up with the answer most traditionalist hardliners on both sides of the issue would respond. I , when I consider my own views, fall into that category. I was raised Latin and converted to Orthodoxy precisely for the things that make Orthodoxy different from the RCC and its affiliates. For this reason, I like the status quo and hope it continues for the foreseeable future. I will admit to a bias here and I frankly acknowledge that others on both sides have different opinions than mine on the issue.

I agree with you. I think there is a Christian East and West, but those terms are more about tradition now than geography. Like geography, they tend to blend into each other.

The metaphor I prefer is the "I am the Vine and you are the branches." The branches are different and distinctive. But they all have a common Vine, and they all have a lot more in common with each other too . . .

My two cents,

-- John

John, you, as is your right, are choosing to ignore the fact that there are hardliners of both the east and the west on this topic. BTW, there is nothing wrong with being a hardliner if one does not get too offensive about it. We have some here and I could refer you to some Orthodox web sites that make some of the "super"-Catholics here look like pussycats! For the record, I would denote some of the right wing Orthodox as "super"-Orthodox.

Do we move forward while acknowledging there will always be people on either side that see the other side as anathema? I certainly think so. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by liking the status quo. Could you elaborate, please?

Byzantine, check your inbox for an answer to your question.

John,

I agree that "hardliners" have a genuine place in the mix of things. For one thing, if they start to come around, it's a sure sign that what's happening is from God and not from men!

Fr. Schmemann was certainly a hardliner when it came to the question of reuniting with Rome, which was probably due in large part to the fact that he was so familiar with Scholastic theology and could see its deficiencies vis-a-vis the Patristic theology that he taught.

He did insist, however, that the unity of the Church was "from above," and that man's efforts to reunite the churches were doomed to failure if they merely sought a solution on a human level. I agree with him completely on this principle, even if I do not agree with him on its implications.

Certainly, it can be upsetting when someone disagrees with you vehemently, considers you a heretic, apostate, etc., but such cases are when it's so good to ask for and receive the peace that comes from above ...


Peace,
Deacon Richard

On the question of the relation between Eastern and Western theology I am an incompatibilist, that is, I believe that there are some very real differences or insurmountable disagreement on key points such that they cannot be called "different expressions of the same Faith" unless we refuse to take the Western theological developments of the last thousand years seriously. We do not have to "profess faith in the Church Fathers" in order to see that, say, Aquinas' views on the problem of evil and predestination (God does not will the eternal salvation of all) are incompatible with the Eastern Christian doctrines of man and salvation. My patron saint is St. Maximus the Confessor, who was not merely "more Orthodox than the Patriarch" but moreso than four of them at the same time. I think he demonstrates the love underlying a hardline position, which charitably endures the discomfort and pain that comes with the refusal to sacrifice saving truth, not to appear justified before others, but for the sake of both self and other. It is less like a person who refuses to admit his error at all costs, and more like someone who separates himself from his beloved friends if they will not repent and make reparations for wronging another or some other serious fault.