www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Slavonic or no Slavonic

I bought a 'Missal' at the local ROCOR/ROCA parish. It has the Glagolitic script on one side and English on the other.

There's no one type of convert, and no one type of "old-timer", at least in my experience in the two Orthodox parishes (one a mission) that I've been around. Some of the "old-timers" I have met have been the most adamant about deempasizing the cultural elements of the church and doing everything entirely in English. Some of the new comers who have the same agenda, whatever negative traits you might assign to them, it must be said also usually seem interested in growing the church and reaching the outside community in a very concerted manner. Whereas some who favor keeping things the way they are, often it seems are fairly content with keeping the community as it is and not attempting to reach those outside the church and spread the message of Orthodox Christianity. That is not to advocate either position, or even to say who is right or wrong (my own opinion is mixed), but there is a good deal of gray here. That is what I'm trying to say.
Does the fact that the UGCC (as far as I can tell) for the most part now uses vernacular Ukrainian instead of Slavonic give you the "creeps"?

This is odd indeed. Especially as (near me at least) the Greek Orthodox parishes have converts and youth who want _more_ Greek and not less. Maybe a desire for a more "real" "authentic" practice?

Ah, but what better way to LEARN to understand what they are singing than to actually dive in and sing it! Take a hymn or a response at this week's DL in an "understandable" language (English around these here parts) and then follow up at next week's DL with the same hymn or response in Slavonic. Do this enough and you can't help but begin to associate the English words with their Slavonic counterparts. Pretty soon you even begin to recognize those same words when they pop up in other Slavonic hymns and responses. Before you know it you've assimilated an entire liturgical language - maybe not to the extent that you've a firm grasp of all the specific rules of grammar, but certainly well enough to know whether, for example, you're singing a hymn in honor of the Holy Spirit or the Theotokos.

I guarantee, for example, that it would only take one Divine Liturgy for an English-speaking congregation to learn and understand what Hospodi pomiluj translates to!

Al (a pilgrim)

Or even Gospodi Pomilui

Are you sure it is not Slavonic script that you see? (Please look at the earlier posting with examples). There is no glagol typeset at Jordanville, or anywhere in this hemisphere that I am aware of.

Alexandr

For those of us who know NO Slavic at all, I kindly request, yet again, to please translate for our benefit--even those phrases which you may *assume* that everyone knows.

I would like to learn, I am sure that I am not alone, and I have been uncharitably ignored every time I request posters translate!!!

A phonetic key to pronunciation would also be appreciated.

In Christ,
Alice, Moderator

Gospodi Pomilui = Kyrie Eleison.

Sorry, sometimes we forget about non Slavs!

Alexandr

I went to a wonderful talk by a retired OCA Archbishop, Laurus, I think his name was but may be mistaken. He was speaking on keeping the church as a parish family.

While waiting for the talk to begin, I noticed a number of converts from the local Antiochian parish arrive... long beards, all the girls had on head scarves, venerated the ikons on the ikonostas and almost knocked them over as it is a free-standing ikonostas... you know the type...

Anyway, one of the raised his hand at the end of the talk and asked a question concerning the choir and the parish family's role during the Divine Liturgy.

The Archbishop told him that they should get rid of the choir and go back to congregational singing to give the congregation more of a role during the Divine Liturgy.

I thought this response was AWESOME!

The equal risk is simply that Slavonic will die out on its own. In my parish it is used in varying levels, and I've never really heard it discussed, pro or con. Most of the old timers know it, very few of the younger generation as far as I can tell does. It is not taught at all in Sunday school. I would not be surprised if it went away altogether in 20 years.

Our former pastor (a biritual RC Franciscan) got a kick out of visiting Ukrainian Catholics commenting on the parish singing in Ukrainian . . .

Anyway, virtually no Slavonic in our parish--it's generally limited to extra verses, or someone singing during communion.

OTOH, actual BC, let alone Slavs, are the minority in our parish.

And thinking back, had the first Divine Liturgy I attended been largely not in English, I doubt that I would have been as impressed and overwhelmed as I was--it wasn't just the reverence that impressed me, but the full statement of the faith.

hawk

Can you tell us how to pronounce that?

Alice

Like "gospodee pomeeloo (the "g" and "o" like "go" and the "spo" like they are in "spoke"). The g would be more like an h sound depending on where you're from.

Ok, I'm really sorry if I came out rather harsh in my OP.

To clarify, what gives me the creeps is when people speak about removing the sacred languages in their entirety. Ok, let's have English liturgies, but to remove the Slavonic or the Greek would be to deny the past altogether. Furthermore, it is a fact that the ancient languages have a richness and depth not always to be found in modern ones, and not always carried over into transalations. Knowledge of the old languages among some of the clergy and laity is necessary for this full richness to be accessed.

I think that, on this point, Eastern Christians also have a thing or two to learn from Roman Catholics. If there is anything that the liturgical wars of the last 40 years have taught us "Romans", it is that to abolish the sacred language (in this case, Latin) leads to an incredible impoverishment of liturgy, theology and ecclesial culture. Let the vernacular liturgy remain, yes; but let some Latin (or, in the case of Byzantine-rite churches, Greek or Slavonic) remain beside these, as a living link to the traditions of the past!

I've read that in Holy Cross Hellenic College, there is a policy of celebrating (and teaching seminarians) the liturgy in 50% English and 50% Greek. In many parishes, a policy of alternating the language of the Divine Liturgy (English this week, Slavonic the next) or having it celebrated in Slavonic or Greek at least once a month would be a good way to retain the ancient languages.

In my OP, I mentioned "beautiful and reverent" translations too, and as everyone on this board knows, THAT too has become an issue among the Byzantines (Mainly the BCC, but also in some other jurisdictions). If the various Byzantine - rite jurisdictions (Orthodox and Catholic) are going to have their liturgy in English, fine, but let them sit down and work out complete translations of the liturgical books! And let these translations be truly faithful, catching almost all of the riches and nuance of the original, to the extent that is possible. And let the translations use a fitting idiom, not street vernacular.

I said "literal translations" in my OP, not beautiful and reverent ones.