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http://www.tass.ru/eng/level2.html?NewsID=2326719&PageNum=0



Orthodox believers organise protest in front of Vatican embassy.

17.08.2005, 20.25



KIEV, August 17 (Itar-Tass) -- Dozens of people who support Ukraine�s Brotherhood party organised a protest in front of the residence of the papal nuncio (the Vatican�s envoy) in Kiev on Wednesday.

They protested against the planned transfer of the cathedra of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church from Lvov to Kiev.

The protesters demanded "to stop the expansion of Catholicism to Orthodox territories and give up plans to transfer the head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholics to the Ukrainian capital, the historical centre of Slavic Orthodoxy".

The Greek Catholic Church (UGCC) has decided to transfer the residence of the supreme archbishop from Lvov to Kiev on August 21.

The head of Ukrainian Uniates, Cardinal Lubomyr Husar�s spokesman said the UGCC head from now on be titled as the supreme archbishop of Kiev and Halychyna. This decision was adopted in October 2004 and was blessed by Pope John Paul II.

The Moscow Patriarchate believes the transfer of the residence of the head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church to Kiev "may exacerbate relations with the Vatican," the department of external church relations of the Moscow Patriarchate said.

"This step may have most negative consequences for relations between the Orthodox and Catholic churches," especially "if accompanied by intensified proselytising activities of the UGCC among Orthodox Christians in Ukraine."

The UGCC is one of the churches of the Eastern rite recognising the papal spiritual authority and jurisdiction. The Greek Catholic Church has existed in Ukraine since 1596.

There are presently over 27,500 religious communities in Ukraine. Over 10,000 of them are under the authority of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate, just over 3,000 are controlled by the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kiev Patriarchate, and more than 3,000 are under the UGCC.

The Moscow Patriarchate�s department of external church relations said, "The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church support to the relocation of the Church head�s residence to Kiev is unfounded from the historical and canonical points of view."

Patriarch Alexy II of Moscow and All Russia expressed concern over the transfer of the pulpit of the Greek Catholic Church of Ukraine to Kiev.

"These obviously unfriendly moves will bring more tension into relations with the Greek Catholic Church of Ukraine and with the Roman See," Alexy II said.

"These actions cannot be justified either from the viewpoint of history or the viewpoint of church rules," the patriarch said. He recalled that the Kiev pulpit from the first years of its existence "was one of the centres of the Russian Orthodox Church, first as a metropolitan see and then as the main pulpit of Ukrainian dioceses."

The head of the Russian Orthodox Church mentioned among other prerequisites for his meeting with Pope Benedict XVI "an end to the policy of proselytising the Greek Catholic Church of Ukraine pursues."

The patriarch believes the Russian Church deserves "at least a word of gratitude" for its care for those who adhere to the Union (the association of two or more churches on the basis of the supremacy of one of them with others preserving their rites).

After the Greek Catholic parishes were closed in 1946, Uniates "worshiped in temples of the Russian Orthodox Church and studied in its seminaries and academies." "We hoped that our relations will continue developing in the vein of benevolence and peaceful coexistence," the patriarch said. However, "instead of that the Greek Catholic Church resumed the practice of the XVI-XVII centuries when the Union was forcibly restored with the backing of the authorities opposed to Orthodox Christianity."

The patriarch expressed the hope "for balanced and reasonable attitude of the Roman Catholic Church."

Some people simply never learn. The MP should stop this nonsense and concentrate on the faith of his people, and leave everyone else alone.

Gaudior, peeved but not surprised

Amen! Gaudior!

Actually this seems quite amusing. Various Orthodox spokesmen have repeatedly denounced the Vatican for interfering with the lives of the Local Churches - and now people who claim to be defending "Slavic Orthodoxy" (a variety of Orthodoxy with which I am not entirely familiar) are picketing the Nuntiature in Kyiv demanding that the Vatican should interfere on the "question" of where a Patriarch should reside! Now that's an example of creative ecclesiology.

Incognitus

In no particular order...

* The Orthodox have often defended an anti-union stance by pointing out Rome's interference in the affairs of the Eastern Catholic Churches - "We don't want to be controlled by the Pope!" But when an EC Church acts independently to the apparent detriment of an Orthodox Church, they demand Rome steps in and stops whatever is going on.

* The Ukrainian Orthodox Church (MP) is supposedly autonomous. It's interesting to note that a number of official statements came from Moscow before anything was said by Metropolitan Volodymyr of Kyiv. One would think that the local Orthodox hierarch would be the one most interested in the situation and probably the most vocal. Draw your own conclusions.

* The UGCC is the biggest threat to Orthodoxy? No, to Russian hegemony. Where are the protests against the Protestants, Budhists, Hare Krishnas, Musilms, etc? Did faithful of the MP protests when a large mosque was built on the remains of an Old Believer cemetery in Kyiv?

The protests have nothing to do with faith and everything to do with politics. Some people assume that by now the Russian Orthodox Church would have learned its lesson on the results of working hand-in-hand (hand-in-pocket?) with the Kremlin. They have! Yes, there's the odd bit of hassle now and then, but over all co-operation with the Kremlin means protection and access to resources. I fear this attitude will not change any time soon.

Pray.

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον η�άς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

Can the Pope issue any order or recommendation to Metropolitan Lubomyr to stay in Lviv and not to move his headquarters to Kyiv?

I do not think so.

Dear Friends,

On the MP's website, http://www.mospat.ru or http://www.pravoslavie.ru there are two letters from Met. Vladimir Sabodan.

The first letter is to Pope Benedict, essentially a complaint against the "provocative" move to Kyiv by the head of the Greek-Catholics, its bad impact on Orthodox-Catholic relations and the like.

The second is a letter to Ukraine's President, asking him to stop the practice of allowing other Churches to use Kyiv's historic cathedrals for services, especially the Greek-Catholics.

So I don't know where Kobzar gets off saying the Moscow Patriarchate has no respect for the autonomy of the UOC-MP!

It doesn't like the situation with Huzar anymore than Moscow does!

Alex

In some ways this whole episode to me ecapsulates the really deep and tortuous contours that still separate the West and East; and how in many ways we�re trapped by politics, nationalism and history itself.

Undoubtedly the move will be seen as a victory for the UCGG, and understandably so. I wonder if in the bigger scope of East/West relations though, it might not end up being a Pyrrhic one.

Andrew

Dear Andrew,

I don't think we'll ever be free of the political side of this coin.

There is no victory for the UGCC in its move to Kyiv.

But the world does see, I will say, unfortunately, the autocratic character of the Russian Orthodox Church and its satellite, the UOC-MP, in trying to tell this or that Church whether or not it can come into a city in a democratic state.

As Kobzar said, the Orthodox weren't too upset by the setting up shop of the Hare Krishnas and others in Kyiv.

No, this has precious little to do with religion on either side. It is about the fear of Western influence in what Russia still considers its own personal backyard and also the fear of the strengthening of the ties amongst the various Ukrainian churches.

The Moscow Patriarchate has excommunicated the UOC-KP and the autocephalous movement as uncanonical and therefore not even worthy of the title of "church." It has a similar view of the "Uniates" but it cannot excommunicate them since they are not under its jurisdiction.

Moscow viewed with great suspicion and apprehension the growth of the Greek-Catholic Church in western Ukraine, something that years of "Orthodoxization" under Soviet rule could not change.

Moscow continues to assert that such a growth was caused via a "forced" re-entry of the GC's.

I've two relatives who were Russian Orthodox priests in the Soviet era but who automatically became Ukrainian Catholic when that church came out from underground - along with many, many others who were, yes, trained in Russian seminaries since there were no others.

They continued to be Catholic in their hearts, as they told me until the opportune moment came.

And come it did.

National identity and nationalism plays and will always play an important role in religious identity in this part of the world.

The Russians pretend that they are somehow "universal" and not nationalistically inclined . . . right . . .

This has everything to do with a national struggle that predates nationalism itself, where the churches were always involved as representatives of one or the other perspective.

The Ukrainian Orthodox actually welcome Husar to Kyiv. It is the Russians alone who don't want him there.

The same Russians who supported a corrupt presidential candidate who was Moscow's lackey during the last election.

It is time the Russians got disused to telling Ukrainians (and others) what they can or cannot do in their own independent, democratic countries.

We should pray that democracy comes to Russia and that she stop her war-mongering against the West.

Alex

And one of the funniest things about the ROC-MP's intensely ethnocentric and nationalistic attitude is that Patriarch Alexy is German/Estonian! :rolleyes:

Logos Teen

Alex, I understand the history behind this and can appreciate there are grievances felt on both sides.

I would only quibble with a few things you said.



Then I would have to wonder why they are doing this, given what is at stake. The idea that somehow this will ease administration I find somewhat hard to believe. Deep down, at least on the part of some, I believe there is a wish to stick a needle in the eye of the Russians.



This is something that I don�t believe is the case (aside from the UO welcoming him). The Ecumenical Patriarch himself I believe sent a letter to the Pope in 2004 asking him not to allow this to happen. I don�t know of any Orthodox Church, aside from the non-canonical Ukrainian ones, who would look on this with a friendly eye. I also don�t think this does anything to ease the very unfortunate situation amongst the Orthodox bodies in Ukraine either, and may very well further polarize things.

Andrew

Dear Andrew,

Kyiv does not belong to the Russians, it belongs to Ukraine.

That IS the point.

And Kyiv's Orthodox Metropolitan did sign the Union of Brest in 1596.

And Ukrainian Catholics are all over Ukraine, not just in Galicia.

Ukrainian Catholics have the right, do they not, to witness to and administer their flock wherever they might be - in Ukraine especially? And in Kyiv, the capital?

Isn't that how Catholic and Orthodox churches usually operate in countries?

As do the Old Believers, the Hare Krishnas and other groups stationed in Kyiv?

The "uncanonical" Ukrainian Orthodox are indeed grateful to have Husar with them.

The "canonical" Russians are not.

As for the EP, he has changed his tune recently after President Yuschenko paid him a visit - the President is also an "uncanonical Orthodox."

I'd rather cast my lot in with my uncanonical Ukrainian Orthodox brothers and sisters . . . that should go without saying.

That Russian Orthodoxy has been able to get away with what it has with respect to the Ukrainian and Georgian churches is a true blight on the reputation of world Orthodoxy.

The only thing the Moscow Patriarch could say about this is blame the Greek-Catholics for "ingratitude" since they attended Russian churches and seminaries etc.

Ingratitude? After the MP was complicit with the Soviet authorities in destroying the UGCC (also complicit in harming the growth of the Russian Orthodox church under the Soviets too, I understand)?

That doesn't upset you?

If I were Orthodox (canonical, of course), it would upset me tremendously.

So, from your post, I gather that you support the Russian Orthodox Church (which you also say represents world Orthodoxy) telling Greek-Catholics whether they can set up HQ in Kyiv or not?

And that you see the move to Kyiv by Husar in the same light as the MP, as EC expansionism?

Will the Greek-Catholics resort to medieval tactics, such as forced baptism of Orthodox, whippings, etc. to get them to join the UGCC?

In any event, you know my position, I know yours and we disagree.

Have a great weekend!

Alex

Alex, I've obviously done a very poor job of communicating here. I'm not intending to fan any flames.

I am not Russian or Ukrainian, I'm not for either side against the other. I don't think one side or the other could or should be able to tell the other what to do.

When I used the word uncanonical in relation to the UO bodies it was not meant pejoratively. I simply mean the canonical status of those churches is not normalized within Orthodoxy.

Quote

And that you see the move to Kyiv by Husar in the same light as the MP, as EC expansionism?

No. I see it as further complicating a difficult situation.

Andrew

Dear Andrew,

No problem!

Actually, Kyiv is quite beautiful this time of year - and Husar is essentially American, a Yankee in fact.

I'm sure the Dnipro river will remind him of the Mississippi!

For Russians, Ukraine is the "Deep South" you know!

A great weekend!

(ps. when do you think you'll be ready to be received into Orthodoxy? If that's none of my business . . .)

Alex

[exasperated] WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES THIS MAKE !?!?!?[/exasperated]

What difference can this POSSIBLY make to Moscow, or to ANY Orthodox Christian WHICH CITY the UGCC is headquartered in?

Will it make the witness of the Orthodox any weaker?

If the UGCC sets up shop immediately next door to the MP, will that MATTER?

For pity's sake, Moscow! GROW UP. If you hadn't made such a MESS of things, protesting over this move like a child having a temper tantrum, the UGCC could have just set up shop in Kyiv, and happily gone about their business...as the Orthodox could have. NOW, bad feelings are being stirred up between neighbour and neighbour, and "turf wars" are happening.

It is somewhat discouraging to consider that the MP's attitude seems to be that of a five year old who wants to control the WHOLE sandbox.

Gaudior, disgusted