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Dec 29th, 2019
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I am interested in reading some Slavic, Russian, or any other Orthodox or Greek Catholic books or articles that defend the validity of Baptism by pouring and or sprinkling. (But not neccessarily that defend the actual practices of Baptism by Pouring and Baptism by Sprinkling, merely that the Baptisms are truly valid by Acrivia and not just accepted by Oiconomia)
I have been reading some materials from the Greek perspective that state that Baptism by Pouring and Baptism by Sprinkling are invalid since they are not true Immersions and Emmersions. It is my understanding that historically some Russians have Baptized by Pouring and I would appreciate any enlightenment that could be offered on the justification of the validity of these Baptisms.
Thank you!
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It is my understanding that historically some Russians have Baptized by Pouring and I would appreciate any enlightenment that could be offered on the justification of the validity of these Baptisms. Sure those aren't Ukrainians??????
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Baptisms by sprinkling aren't considered valid by the Catholic Church, and I'd be surprised if the Eastern Orthodox Churches considered them valid.
Alexis
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In general, the Orthodox Church today does not re-do the baptism of converts if they were baptised in the "Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." Jesus Christ commissioned His Apostles to "go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19). The Church of Christ from the beginning baptized its members by immersing them thrice by a priest in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Immersion baptism was the practice of the early Church. Only one baptism is allowed. Therefore, by dispensation, the Orthodox Church accepts as valid those baptisms performed in other Christian churches which baptize their members in the name of the Holy Trinity. By Baptism the Church holds that all optional and original sins are cleansed by the Grace of God. The Chrismation of a newly baptized person is the confirmation of his faith which is "the seal of the gift of the Holy Ghost". http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7063.aspIn cases of necessity even a lay person can baptise but of course not chrismate. See this article about Protestant churches from the Greek Orthodox Archdioces web site: Protestants and Orthodox Laud Agreement in Germany on Baptism (ENI Release) Ecumenical News International Daily News Service 06 October 2004 By Frauke Brauns Bielefeld, Germany, 6 October (ENI)--The Evangelical Church in Germany (EKD), the country's main Protestant grouping, and the Istanbul-based Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople have signed an agreement to recognise baptisms. Under the agreement announced after a September meeting in Istanbul, Christians who convert from one denomination to another will not be baptised again. "Although [full] church fellowship does not yet exist between our churches, we each regard the other's members as being baptised and in the case of a change of confession we reject undertaking a new baptism," the two churches said in a joint statement. The statement was signed by Metropolitan Augoustinos of Germany who is responsible for Orthodox Christians in central Europe, for the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and Bishop Rolf Koppe, head of foreign relations for the EKD. Baptism, a religious ceremony performed with water, is acknowledged throughout the Christian world to be a commandment of Jesus and the fundamental rite of initiation into the Church. "During our negotiations Metropolitan Augoustinos pointed out that the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Germany has not baptised converts for many years," said Dr Dagmar Heller, the EKD officer responsible for ecumenism and Orthodoxy. "But signing this paper helps to combat misunderstanding and prejudices." The EKD and the Ecumenical Patriarchate have held talks since 1969 partly to help promote the integration of Greek Orthodox Christians into German society. Many Greeks came to Germany in the 1960s and 1970s to seek work in the industrial regions of Frankfurt, Munich, Stuttgart, Cologne and Dusseldorf. The Ecumenical Patriarchate in Germany has more than 400 000 members, making it the country's third biggest Christian denomination after the EKD and the Roman Catholic Church. A major World Council of Churches-sponsored conference earlier this year highlighted the importance of the mutual recognition of baptism, considered by some to offer currently the most promising way to promote church unity. In 2003, the then WCC general secretary, Konrad Raiser, said there would be "a 'Copernican Revolution' in ecumenical dialogue if churches were genuinely to recognise each other's baptism". [348 words] All articles (c) Ecumenical News International Reproduction permitted only by media subscribers and provided ENI is acknowledged as the source. Ecumenical News International PO Box 2100 CH - 1211 Geneva 2 Switzerland Tel: (41-22) 791 6088/6111 Fax: (41-22) 788 7244 Email: eni@eni.ch http://www.goarch.org/en/news/NewsDetail.asp?id=1213
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i witnessed an MP priest baptise by pouring, earlier this year, in Singapore.
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Though full immersion is more symbolically correct, I have always thought that historically there were practical reasons for it to have fallen out of practice in the West.
(I would love it if someone actually knew when)...
I surmise that, because the West advocates infants be baptized as soon as possible (and rightly so, I may add, especially since many infants died in the past), and because dunking them naked into water in a freezing cold church, with no hot running water or means of heating water in the winter, that the practice of pouring a little water on the head began.
In the East, this would obviously be a concern too--and that is probably why the tradition in the Greek churches is to baptize the baby at about 6 - 9 months of age...waiting for summer, in essence, and when the baby is more developed and less apt to fall deathly ill. This may be the reason that lay people are allowed to baptize an infant in the air if death seems imminent.
Alice
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I find the information Miller provided to be truly surprising.
The fact is, many Protestants "baptize" by sprinkling, which the Catholic Church does not see as true baptism. These people, when they convert to Catholicism, are ("re")baptized.
But not in some Churches of Orthodoxy? The fact that there are Eastern Orthodox walking around who aren't validly baptized from a Catholic perspective just sounds strange to me.
Well, learn something new every day...
Alexis
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As a convert myself, my baptism was full immersion and in the name of the Holy Trinity. Most of the Baptist churches or Evangelical Churches I attended as a wee lad and then later in my adult life had waist deep pools behind the pulpit somewhere. If there wasn't a pool in the church, they literally went, "down in the river (or pond) to pray,". They were always done in the name of the Trinity. When I spoke to my priest he said that as long as my baptism was done in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit it would be a valid baptism. As there are thousands of different protestant denominations, it would be hard to pin down which ones baptize by sprinkling or by immersion.
Just my thoughts on this.
ICXC,
Aaron
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This may be the reason that lay people are allowed to baptize an infant in the air if death seems imminent.
Alice Dear Alice, Would you explain this further, what does "baptise.. in the air" mean?
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This may be the reason that lay people are allowed to baptize an infant in the air if death seems imminent.
Alice Dear Alice, Would you explain this further, what does "baptise.. in the air" mean? In the event an unbaptized infant is near death, a priest should be called immediately for a clinical baptism. If time is of the essence, however, and the priest is unable to arrive in time, an Orthodox lay person, or any other Christian, may baptize the infant by sprinkling Holy Water on the infant or by raising the infant up in the air three times while saying, "The Servant of God (name) is baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. http://www.saintmarkboca.net/index.cfm?page=parish_information_baptisms
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Aerobaptism - is this also practiced by Orthodox Churches other than the Hellenic tradition?
Alex
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Baptism by pouring and "baptism" by sprinkling:
Baptism by pouring (infusion) is what it sounds like: one pours some water on the neophyte (almost always on the head) while pronouncing the necessary words. This is sometimes called "clinical Baptism" in Orthodox circles, and except for the Old-Ritualists is considered valid, especially when done in emergency (such as a baby in imminent danger of death, in a hospital where there is no possibility of immersion). Even the Didache recognizes this practice, although good usage demands that it should clearly be the exception, not the rule.
"baptism" by sprinkling occurs, if at all, among certain Protestants who don't have much of an idea about sacraments in the first place. One might, for example, take a rose (cut, of course), dip the rose in the water, shake the rose gently over the infant's head, and then, with a theatrical flourish, present the rose to the proud mother. Or one might, if presented with a number of neophytes, sprinkle some water over the crowd (and hope that at least a drop or two will hit each person, I guess). The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church will have nothing to do with such practices, which have neither theological nor mystagogical foundations - or even etymological foundations - this is not the meaning of "baptism" in Greek. One does not wash anything by sprinkling a couple of drops of water on it.
By the way, I did not make up that rose business!
Fr. Serge
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Bless, Father, When you give a rose, one must always look out for the thorns . . .  Alex
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I was actually in attendance at one of these ceremonies, (and asked to be the godfather of one child..) I asked permission of my spiritual father who stated that I could as long as I didn't return the favour  The method was exactly as Fr. Serge stated! The water was supposedly from the Jordan River! The 'sacred' rose taken from the dozen I bought at a nearby grocers!
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Fr. Serge,
Bless!
It seems more common in Protestant traditions for the minister to simply dip is hand in some water and then sprinkle it on the recipient's head.
Oh, and Michael, I was actually baptized with water from the Jordan River, as were my sisters and my mother when she was an infant herself.
Alexis
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