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Joined: Nov 2004
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The week end snow storm prevented me from putting together my thoughts (I had to work it) but I am longing to enter into debate. I wish to throw out on the table my feelings that the scholastic use of 'foreknowledge' is incompatible with the concept of Providence as expressed in mystical theology.

While I do not have time (I am on a quick lunch) to present it properly here and now ...

The scholastic concept of God's 'foreknowledge' presupposes creation to be governed by time in the same way that our senses interpreter 'time'. That is: Linear. This view assumes a date on which creation 'began' and a date on which creation will 'end'. It is time according to our human perception of our senses.

However .. under the doctrine of Providence .. no such date of either a beginning nor end ... of creation .. is applicable. All things and events before Jesus' crucifixion look forward (are patterned upon) the revelation of Jesus Christ. And all creation after that event - looks back (is patterned upon) that same revelation of Jesus Christ.

This view of creation ... assume the event of the revelation of Jesus Christ (his crucifixion and resurrection) to be the event from which all creation (past and future) flows (according to the mind of God).

I would love to dive into this ...

Anyways .. I am probably too late to stir waters.

-ray



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You are standing in a room with a table in front of you.

The table is about five feet square. The width of the table is as wide as your arms reach. If you stretch out both arms .. you can grasp the sides of the table with both hands.

On the table is a straight line of dominoes standing on edge. The dominoes are spaced apart in such a way that it you tip one (far left) it will fall on the next domino in line and cause it to fall also, and that domino will in turn tip the next, and that in turn tip the next, the next, and the next, so-on and so-on, until the last domino in the line (which is at the right side) will fall off the table onto the floor.

It takes four seconds from the moment you tip the first domino (far left) and the wave cross the table .. to the time the last domino (far right) falls from the table.

So reach out your left hand and tip the first domino ... and watch the crested wave of falling dominoes travel from left to right ... until the very last domino on the right ... falls off of the table.

We can express what happened on the table in two ways ...

1)The last domino will fall from the table four seconds in the future from the moment that the first domino is tipped.

2)The first domino having been tipped will be four seconds in the past from the moment the last domino falls from the table.

The starting point is the first domino on the far left. As the wave flows through the line this first domino is going to become the past. The traveling crest of the falling wave of dominoes is the present, and the very last domino on the far right is the future.

The first domino will also be the initial cause .... which will take fours seconds to travel to the last domino and be the effect which will make it fall from the table.

If we tip the first domino and do nothing else but watch the wave ... it will inevitably ... end with the last domino falling off the table. The inevitability of this can be called destiny or fate. We have witnessed an analogy of 'time' according to the senses.

If we will tip the first domino and watch the wave travel for 2 seconds (the wave will be near center of the line and table) and we now make an immediate decision if we will sweep away a few domino from the line (creating a gap in the line) just ahead of the wave ... if we do decide to create the gap ... the wave will cease and the last domino on far right will not fall off of the table. Sweeping our hand to create a gap is the imposition of the choice of our free will.


EXAMINATION
When we had started the tipping ... there was no gap ... the first domino was the initial cause and inevitable cause ... of the future fall of the last domino.

If we decide, 2 seconds into the 4 seconds chain reaction, to make a gap and arrest the wave ... than 2 seconds after the first domino had been the inevitable cause of the last domino ... the first domino changes to NOT being the cause of the fall of the last domino.

What we prove by this is that the meaning of the first domino � is contingent in the past upon our present free will decision and action in the present. It is already clear to us (in a physical way) that the meaning of the last domino is also contingent upon our decision in the present.

Let me repeat: Our spontaneous act of creation of the gap (done after the chain reaction had begun) effectively changed the condition of the first domino (now bing 2 seconds in the past) from being the cause of the last domino to fall ... to ... not being the cause of the last domino to fall.

What we have changed � is the MEANING and the purpose of a past event.

What we have also changed � is the meaning and the outcome of a future event.

This is simple proof that the meaning of the past, and the meaning of the future ... is contingent upon our moment to moment (our present) free will responses to events which happen to us daily.

Reality (which is more than just a physical condition) is contingent (past and future) upon the present.

If one were to think this absurd ... do we Christians not make prayers to God that some situations (that have happened already in the recent past but we do not yet how it turned out) do we not pray that it turned out well? effectively asking God to change the past if need be.

Perhaps someone we know is diagnosed with a deadly form of incurable cancer ... do not we pray �Please God .. let it be cured.� which is asking God to change the future by changing the past.

If some event has happened in the recent past � but we do not know yet how it turned out � we feel free to ask God for it to have turned out (in the past) in some particular way.


PROVIDENCE
The doctrine of Providence is that God arranges and govern all things and all events � in an immediate way � for the purpose of forming us into his own image (likeness). Since the nature of God is not corporal (not body) than this image is spiritual .. which is of our mind .. or better said .. our personality.

The doctrine of Providence is that God does this work of forming us in an immediate way. Providence arranges and governs things and events that come to us ... in a way which is His response to his knowing directly and intimately ... the thoughts of our 'heart' ... at any given moment.

Our personality is formed (through God's use of events in our daily lives) by way of the meaning of the events which he arranges for us to experience. An experiential meaning. This experiential meaning can rightly be called a 'language' in as much as it is an interactive exchange between God and the content of our heart at any moment.

The potter forms the clay by working the clay more and more into the design he has in mind. At each step he must measure the current state of the clay ... against his image he has in his mind ... in order to know what he must do next in the progress.

PREDESTINATION
When we talk of Predestination and Paul ... we are talking of Romans 8:28 which is often called 'The Golden Chain.' in as much as it has been interpreted as steps.

Quote
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestine [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The steps of the chain are these �he foreknew� and �he predestined� and next he �called� and then he �justified� and then finally �he glorified�.

This chain presumes that God foreknows (before birth) someone whom he will predestine (at birth) and then call (to believe in Jesus) and then be justified .. and finally glorified in heaven at the end of his life. Steps in sequential time.

(anyone with the resources to consult the original Greek should do so now)*

But let us look at this portion again. Let us not simply take the translators assumptions as right. Let us SEE if he was right.

Is it really a chain??

I think not.

Paul here is not laying out a chain where these things follow one after another in a time sequences ... no ... he is rather making them join together.

If I were to describe someone standing on the street .. I might say to you �He is standing, feeling good, he is not hungry, in the sun, with a smile on his face.� These things are all together � at once, and not following each other in a time sequence. They are all simultaneous.

What Paul is doing is just about the same thing. He is building ... naming one .. and then adding another to it.

I will now do my best to translate.

>And we know ... that to the ones who are loving God ... God works all things together
>for their good, according to the purpose of their being called.
> Because, those who he foreknew, he also foreordained of conformity to the image of his Son.

Q: What is their good?
A: It is the same as their purpose of being called.

Q: Who is Called?
A: those who are foreknown.
A: those who are in conformity to his Son.
A: those who are foreordained.

One could turn it around also.

Q: Who is in conformity to his Son?
A: those who are foreknow.
A: those who are called.
A: those who are foreordained.

Q: Who is foreordained?
A: those who are foreknown.
A: those who are in conformity to his Son.
A: those who are foreordained.

Do you see what I mean? These qualities ALL belong to �those who are loving God� ... but they belong to that person � all at the same time. There is no time sequence here of stages when one stage in time is followed by a next stage in time.

The building Paul is doing is from the inner foundation (being known by God) outward.

>those who he foreordained, these also he called, and who he called these also he justified,
> and who he justified these also he glorified.

Perhaps the best way to get across what Paul is saying is that those who are loving God .. ARE foreknown ARE called ARE foreordained ARE in conformity with the image of his Son ARE justified ARE glorified .... not one after the other (from human birth to dead) but right now and all together and at the same time.

Paul is NOT giving a progression .. he is giving a procession!

This procession exists when we are loving God (meaning it is effective). It ceases (becomes ineffective) when we cease to love God (commit mortal sin perhaps) and returns to effectiveness when we return to loving God (confession).

It exists � all at one � from its inner foundation (being intimately know by God in what theology calls essential union) to its most exterior expression (glorified on earth). For the term glorified - one should rather think in Jewish terms where the 'glory' is the Providential miracles which accompany a prophet.

One must keep in mind that Jesus, in body, was just as glorified on earth in his daily ministry .. as he was in his resurrection. It was only after his resurrection that the disciples recognized that he was also glorified by God every day including during his crucifixion. That glory (exposed in the transfiguration) was hidden, as if by a veil, to eyes that were not yet purified enough to see it as it was. The statement �We have seen his glory� does not just mean �We have seen him resurrected� but it means �We have seen his life � we were with him during his days of life on earth.�

The 'foreknowledge' of Paul is how God knows us intimately in our heart and foundation .. right here and right now .. in His own mind. It is the start and foundation of our own procession � out from the mind of God and eternity � and into the realm of time - right here - right now - and at every moment.

The scholastic concept of 'foreknowledge' is not the same as Paul's. It assumes a time sequence (linear time sequence) while Paul's assumes a procession (higher manifested to lower). And that is why the scholastic doctrine of Predestination has been a Gordian knot still.

Last edited by Ray Kaliss; 12/18/07 11:52 PM.
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