www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West unity of Catholic and Orthodox Churches is urgent

I think the unity of East and West is as urgent as any moral imperative. But it is apparently not felt to be urgent by many. While Catholics have certainly been making efforts and been quite generous in the talks that produced the Ravenna Document, there seems to be a decided lack of urgency on the part of the Orthodox. The generous proposed re-imagining of Purgatory in Spe Salvi is another example.

The notorious mixed messages of the MP, one day proclaiming a thaw in relations and the next threatening to call off a meeting with the pope unless demands are met, are indicative to me at least of an ill spirit. To some it does not appear to matter what Jesus prayed in John 17. Posturing, turf and the emphasis on differences appear far more important.

My only question is how long before the Catholic world loses interest?

Soon, I hope.

I don't want to be Catholic. I don�t want to be in union with the Catholic Church. I don't believe that unity with the Catholic Church is either imperative or urgent or reflective of "the mind of Christ."

And that's because I don't believe in the Catholic religion.

I don't mean that disrespectfully. The Catholic religion works well enough as a way to God, and I genuinely respect that, and I�m genuinely glad for the people who find their way to God through it.

Instead, I mean that I don't believe in many of the Catholic Church's teachings. For example, I don't believe in the papacy. I don�t believe that it has universal jurisdiction, and I don�t believe that it has supreme authority (on earth) over the Church. I don't believe in the birth control teaching. I don't believe in the divorce teaching. I don't believe in the filioque. I don't believe that the Bishop of Rome can change the Creed all by himself. Etc. I don't believe in a lot of things that the Catholic Church teaches.

Also, I don't like Catholic worship. For some people, it works well as a form of worship. And that is a good thing. I really mean that, because it helps them get closer to God. But for myself, I was about ready to scream if I had to endure another novus ordo Mass . . . with people holding hands, or clapping, or performing �liturgical dance� etc. Also, I don't believe that returning to the Tridentine Mass at this late time would make things any better. It would work for some, but (by now) it would hurt a lot of others. Meanwhile, I have discovered the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, and I greatly prefer that. Some Eastern Catholics do a good job with that too, but I prefer attending it at the Orthodox Church; and so I do.

In short, I'm not a Catholic. Nor am I a Catholic refugee.

I'm an Orthodox Christian. I am very imperfect as one, and I am a sinner. Nevertheless, Holy Orthodoxy is the religion which I try to practice, because Holy Orthodoxy is the religion that I believe in.

And, as an Orthodox Christian, I don't want reunion with Rome. I don't believe what Rome teaches, and I don�t like what Rome does, and I don�t think that Rome is truly reflective of the Gospel in certain areas.

Some people will be profoundly offended by that statement, but they shouldn�t be. If I believed in and approved of the Roman Catholic Church, then I would belong to it. But I don�t, so I�m not a member of it. It�s a simple statement of fact. Some people believe in the Catholic religion, and so they are Catholic. Others don�t believe in the Catholic religion, so we are not Catholic. It�s not an offense; it is simply the way things are.

What is wearisome to me --and, I imagine, to many others-- is the current Roman drive for �ecumenism.� I don't believe in having "unity" for the sake of unity. I don't believe in unity among churches without also having a unity of beliefs. Yet, that is what seems to be the driving goal for the Roman Catholic push for �ecumenism� . . . because it fails to recognize that we are fundamentally different churches.

Let's be honest. Our churches -- the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church-- got a divorce a thousand years ago. We got a divorce because of problems that had been building for centuries before that. And even though theoretically a lot of the surface level problems can be worked out on paper, the deeper problems cannot.

That is because we are too fundamentally different. We are different in mindset (cataphatic versus apophatic). We are different in tradition (Latin versus Greek / Syriac / Copt).

Most of all, we are different in our understanding of authority in the Church. Catholics see one God, one Christ and one pope. Orthodox see one God, one Christ, and many bishops -- just as there were many apostles on that first Pentecost.

Those are incompatible ideas of Church authority. Either the Bishop of Rome is the head of all the Church -- as the Catholics believe. Or, the Bishop of Rome is just a first among equals of all the bishops -- as the Orthodox believe.

To return to the metaphor of divorce, we have irreconcilable differences. For either church to give up its basic views would mean sacrificing basic, vital parts of its identity, and that is unacceptable. And because of those irreconcilable differences, our Churches got a divorce.

And, in my opinion, divorced we should remain. That is because the reasons for our divorce still exist. They aren�t going to change, and they aren�t going to go away. And the last thing that I would want to do is to get remarried while the reasons for a divorce are still real. It�s would be a lie and a violation.

So, let us agree to be good neighbors. In this imperfect but real situation, the unity which Christ prayed for can be achieved by being good neighbors. We can be charitable to each other. We can respect each other -- including our differences. And we can be united with each other in the common causes of the Gospel that challenge our world. We really can be a we without being part of the same group. We really can be good neighbors.

Catholics are about half of the world's Christians. But the other half is not Catholic . . . and we like being non-Catholic. And I would dearly like it if we could get just agree to disagree and to live as good neighbors.

-- John

John,

Let me start out by saying I respect your opinion, but I would like to point out a major disconnect in your reasoning. Later on in your post you state:In other words, on the one hand, you accept that RCs can rightly be called Christians, yet on the other, you call them a "different religion."

My contention is that they cannot be regarded as a different religion unless:

• you deny they're Christians
• you regard them as holding forth a "different Christ"
• you regard their worship as blasphemy

If you can answer "yes" to all of these, then you are completely right to want no fellowship of any kind with them.

However, if this is not the case, I find it hard to see how you can claim that reunion is not the mind of Christ.

Let me just say that a false, superficial reunion like that of Florence is not my desire, nor do I think anyone in this forum is hoping for that. A true reunion will necessarily involve a purification of both sides and bring everyone closer to Christ--both as a necessary prerequisite and as a result.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

JOHN:

With all due respect for you as a brother in Christ and for your heartfelt expression of tiredness with ecumenism and the many things that disturb your peace, please know that many of the things that disturb you--e.g., some Catholic worship that is still stuck in 60s nuttiness--also disturb those of us who are still in the trenches.

But my question to you is how do we get away from the High Preistly Prayer of Jesus found in St. John's Gospel, Chapter 17, v. 21? (" . . . that they all may be one . . .")

Beyond that, we all in the Apostolic Churches have to come to grips with the need to find a common ground for complete unity with Protestants. If we think that what divides us who have a common heritage is a great deal, what about the even greater work ahead of us in this other area?

And what are we to say to the Master when He asks what we have done to do His and the Father's Will in this matter?

In Christ,

BOB

Ray,

In these instances, Paul was speaking in his capacity as founder and spiritual father of the Church in Corinth. This overrode any formal Church structure. Even if the current bishop didn't like Paul, he knew his position wouldn't be worth 2 drachmas if he allowed the people to see he was anything less than 100% with Paul.

As I mentioned above, the goal is not to "prove who's right," but to discern what God is saying on this matter. God may achieve His purpose anyway, despite what men may try to do. Let us hope that the commission includes many who fear God and not men.

That is why we say that Scripture is to be understood according to Tradition, and Tradition is discerned primarily through the writings of the Fathers. That isn't to say that we can't misconstrue both the Scripture and the Fathers, but that is where the Holy Spirit comes in--without Him, it is impossible to know the truth, but we do have Our Lord's promise that "

Here's where men have tried for centuries to reduce Truth to a neat little formula that can be expressed in human words. Jesus told us He is the Truth, and if that's the case, then:
... Truth=Christ=God=Infinity=(sorry-jack-you-can't-express-this-in-human-words).

Jesus promised the Apostles that the Holy Spirit would "guide them into all truth" (c.f. Jn. 16:13). Our divisions bear witness to the fact that we have not always looked to Him as the Guarantor of truth. We really need to be careful that we don't fall under the same illusion as the Pharisees, who trusted in their traditions without discerning whether they were from God or from men.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

I am with you - 2000%



Hence .. our search for truth is a search that must end up in ... a person (Jesus Christ) and an experience (the enlightenment of our own person) which words have no capability to convey properly as thoughts, reasoning, logic, formula, emotions, etc..

In my opinion ... Infallibility (in any form) has become an earthy substitute for the mystical union that the church had once called us to.

Deeper than the senses,
deeper than the psychological mind,
is the conscience
where God writes in our hearts
what can not be written in our heads.

Deeper than the Court of the Gentile, (the senses)
deeper than the Court of Israel, (the mind)
is the Holy of Holies (conscience)
where we meet God face to face
and we know what God knows.


Peace is the result of good conscience.
-ray

In terms of the current struggles with cultural and moral relativism, militant Islam, and militant atheism and secularism, what would reunification at this moment achieve? What concretely does it mean for Catholic and Orthodox and Protestant to fight in a united front? It seems to me that this must be answered in order to really determine whether reunification is urgent.

Joe

And is intercommunion really needed to fight on a united front? Or can't we just agree to stand together on common Judeo-Christian moral values? (here we can also stand with Orthodox Jews and traditionalist non-believers who value the Judeo-Christian tradition).

Joe

Joe:

You've named the common enemies. I think the answer to your question is that we have a choice: we can stand and fight together as one in the Mystical Body of Christ; or we can all perish separately.


Again, with all due respect, I've gotten stuck on St. john's Gospel 17:21. Christ prays for this; He came to do the Father's Will, not His own as He so often tells His disciples; somehow it seems a scandal to be divided and a moral imperative to find our way to Him together.

As it has been stated above, it's not about who is right or who was wrong or how we got to be so terribly antigonistic to each other, but how we repent and get over the past millenium and its pains. In the Orthodox Church, author Timothy Ware recalls how the present hardened attitudes didn't get this hard until well into the second millenium. Orthodox clergy took part in Eucharistic processions with Latin clergy until the days of the Counter Reformation found us treating each other as badly as Cardinal Humber treated Patriarch Michael. It took several hundered years for the breach to become so sharply defined that today we find each other so far apart. While communion didn't seem to take place regularly or concelebration, neither did the rabid hatred one still finds so often. And I chose those who words rather carefully because it sometimes feels like hatred comes first as a reflex.

Reminds me of the time I was at a fraternal club meeting and this elderly gentleman was going on about Protestants. He was surprised when I told him the larger part of my family were Protestants. I told him that if he got to Heaven he might find himself in this situation. St. Peter would say, "There's good news and there's bad news for you. The good news is that you're getting in. The bad news is that you're going to be Jimmy Swiggart's roommate in a 6 by 9 foot room with bunk beds, a small closet, he's already there, and you'll have to negotiate who gets how much closet space and the bottom bunk."

Archbishop Fulton Sheen was often quoted as saying about Heaven, "There will be three surprises. One, who is there; two, who isn't there; and three, that you are there." I'm hoping that this last surprise comes my way.

For myself, I wouldn't mind spending eternity with any of the Orthodox saints, the Catholic saints, the OO saints, or even a Protestant roommate. Because from each one I can learn what the gifts of the Holy Spirit are thast are given to him.

In Christ,

BOB

Bob,

However, we shall not perish at all. The Gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church. So we must have hope and faith. As soon as humanity has become bored and despondent over their latest apostasy, they will come back to us.

Now, is intercommunion necessary to fight this battle or is it sufficient that each Christian have his own local, apostolic Church in which he can commune?

Joe

The question on the necessity of intercommunion isn't *if*, but *how much*.

We don't need to reach the point where clergy are regularly substituting at the other churches, or that a Catholic bishop offers to trade an Orthodox bishop three deacons in California in return for a priest in Oregon and a seminarian to be named later.

We sure better get past the point where an Eastern Catholic excommunicates himself by attending an Orthodox liturgy of the same rite and receiving Communion there (and vice versa).

hawk

JOE:

Maybe it's just me, but whenever I go to "offer my gift and remember that my brother has something against me" I am grieved that I do not do what the Lord commands and go to seek reconciliation first.

And I especially grieve that there are divisions among Christians that I cannot reconcile, but have to settle for praying for the reconciliation that only Christ can give us as He gives Himself in the Mysteries--as the gift we have to accept and cannot return in kind, humbling ourselves to accept the Gift Sublime.

As long as there is not full communion, we slap the Gift Giver and act as if He is our property rather than remembering that in Baptism we become His.

No, the Gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church because it is Christ's Body. But individuals and individual local Churches will indeed disappear under the onslaught of the enemies you enumerate. If we remember that North Africa was once a thriving Christian area and is now no longer so; if we remember that the Middle East is seeing an ethnic cleansing of Christian communities that date from the time of the Apostles; if we remember that the forces of political correctness are forcing the Church to back off its mission in some places--in the UK where recent legislation makes it a crime to teach children that certain lifestyles are immoral even if the teaching is done as part of religious instruction or in Scandinavia where this teaching has long been a criminal offense--if we remember that there are those in the U.S. who have labeled the Bible "hate speech" or where the Church has been forced to abandon hospital work and adoption services, there is a very real danger. The Church will survive but what form it will have when the Lord returns is another matter. It may well be that the Church survives only as it started--as small, hidden cells, driven completely underground. Yes, the Gates of Hell will not prevail, but with the witness of the Russian Church as a reminder it may well perish as a visible force able to influence the greater society in which she finds herself.

In Christ,

BOB
In Christ,

BOB

Bob,

Remember that God knows all that will happen and nothing happens that He does not permit in accordance with His providential will. If it His will that we diminish for His glory, then so be it. The more vicious the attack, the more the opportunity for martyrdom. Remember what Christ said, "When the Son of Man returns will he find any faithful?" and He also says that "in that day it shall be as in the days of Noah..." and we also know that Antichrist is still to come and that there must be a mass apostosy and the "man of sin" revealed before the Lord returns. We should expect that if not in this generation, in a generation coming soon, we will be ground at the mill and our lives poured out as a sacrifice of praise to God.

Joe

Joe, that was wonderfully said! May God bless you -- and may we all truly know and believe this... well, I know I believe what you have said to be true. In fact, it is already the case in much of the world now...

JOE:

Well said. We agree completely on this score.

That said, if we are living in accord with His Will, why are we not working to do that which He wills in regard to " . . . that all may be one"?

BOB