www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West unity of Catholic and Orthodox Churches is urgent

Honestly speaking, I also sensed some disdain in John/Harmon's post. We don't know each individual person's life experiences, so let's leave it at that...ofcourse, it might not be anything more than he didn't have his morning coffee before posting!

Also, when speaking against ABC, I would like to hear the views of persons who have been married for many years, have children, and have had to deal with the issues of finances, stresses, school work, illnesses, jobs, day care, colleges, etc. before I am told that one should procreate as many children as God has willed in this difficult life called life in the USA. Some fortunate people have the resources (extended village type family, good finances, etc.) and the dispositions to have large families, and may God bless them, but the majority of people do not, and this is where the compassion of the Church comes in in granting dispensation to married couples.

I also see no difference in intention between NFP and ABC.

This subject was initially brought up within the context of this subject...it is taking over now as a subject of its own, so let's get back ont topic. Thanks.

Alice, Moderator

Dear Administrator,

You are right. John did sprinkle his post with words like "respect." However he did write with disdain for Catholic liturgy:


I think we ought to write with charity not only to one another but towards each others churches. I find that this forum is rife with disrespect for Catholicism, and that is offensive.

So is there a thread already open on this or are you requesting that one be started? I've been married many years, open to life all of them, but blessed with only one. I'm sure there are others here who God planned to have large families.

Arthur,

This is not a Latin forum. Why should you come here expecting Easterners to be joyfully proclaiming the glories of Latin Christianity? If you espouse Latin theology and way of life then it is incumbent on you to be charitable in this forum since you are out of place here. While individual members of this forum certainly should be charitable to you, there is no reason why they should change their opinions because you are hanging around.

Jason

If you are offended, then do not post here.

As to Novus Ordo Masses with liturgical dancing, the local RC bishop (Diocese of Arlington) finds such things offensive, too, and has made clear they are not allowed. According to the context of your post you must also think him disrespectful.... Speaking as a Catholic I find such things offensive and would walk out of a Catholic Mass should I encounter them. Am I being disrespectful? Plenty of bishops say that I would be doing the correct thing.

Your understanding of what is disrespectful is incorrect.

One can disagree with the tenants of another's faith and speak with respect. One can speak to what is wrong in one's own Church and speak with respect....

Of course there is no difference between NFP and ABC in the intention to reduce pregnancy. But there is a world of difference in the means toward that end. NFP requires discipline which is a spiritual good. ABC cheats God's plan written in the bodies of men and women. Contracepting couples can use each other physically without regard to the procreative end of sex which is God's plan. NFP couples make real sacrifices in order to respect God's design. Spiritually and physically there is a world of difference between these methods.

The subject of this thread is not contraception but rather whether unity between Catholics and Orthodox is urgent and how it may be possible.

Joe

Roman,

This is a forum relating to Byzantine Catholicism. Eastern Catholics are part of the Catholic Church. We are one church. What affects one of the Catholic churches affects all of the Catholic churches. I love my Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters and would not tolerate any disrespect toward them. Being a Latin Catholic cannot mean being anti-Eastern. Likewise being an Eastern Catholic cannot mean being anti-Latin.

This being an Eastern Catholic forum, I am presuming that it cannot be an anti-Latin forum.

Arthur ,

I fear you are under a misapprehension as to this Forum.


We are Eastern Christians here - ie Orthodox and Catholic . Please be a little more careful with your terminology.

I know I am way off topic but please could some one help me and quickly.
I need the prayer of blessing for Jordan water, used on the Baptism of the Lord.
Stephanos I

First, this is not an Eastern Catholic forum. It is an EASTERN CHRISTIAN forum which includes Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox of all stripes.

Second, Your logic is flawed. You would like to think that being Eastern Catholic guarantees a loving and docile appreciation of things Latin but you are seriously mistaken. This is simply not the case as your brief stint on this forum has demonstrated. Eastern Christians are not happy when Latins come along and try to tell them that Latin Christianity is superior and that this superiority is Ordained by God.

Perhaps you are grossly ignorant of the sensitivities of Eastern Christians. If so then perhaps you are willing to change your tune and learn to get along with those who do not see things the way you do.

If not, I'm afraid you won't last very long here.

Jason

Alice,
How true God's will for unity will prevail!
During DL this morning we had the gospel reading which quoted Isaiah the Prophet. " A virgin shall conceive and be with child and the will call him, Emmanuel."

I was struck by this fact that God is with us, it is that simple, we dont have to go off on all sorts of issues in our lives which only serve to sidetrack us.
God's will, will prevail.

Stephanos I

OK, first things first: I'm sorry I haven�t posted for a while. I have family visiting for the holidays, and I have work to take care of, so I am pressed for time lately (and I will be till after the holidays).

Next: I'm sorry if I came across as disdainful. Fed up is more like it when I read posts by folks suggesting that I and other Orthodox should become Catholics in order to fulfill the will of Christ.

In addition, I am disgusted with what has become of the Latin rite Mass. It has become an offense against every sense of religious propriety that I have. Yes, sacramentally, I still view it as a valid. But beyond that-- I'm not even referring to monstrosities such as the "clown Mass" or someone dressed up in a Halloween Devil costume distributing Communion. Instead, I'm referring to the everyday, normal American Catholic Mass: with its mind-numbing, soul-stupefying, self-congratulating, smiling handholding, neo-Arianist liturgical swill that it has so often become. The changes have worked for some folks; indeed, millions attend the current novus ordo Mass and they derive great spiritual benefit from it. God bless them. I mean that. But for me and for others? To put it mildly, it ain�t gettin� the job done. I could write LOTS more. Suffice to say that this was not drawing me closer to God, and so I searched for a church where the liturgy and teachings do lead me to God. And, God willing, that for me is the Orthodox Church.

Now, on to Fr. Stephanos' remark. I didn't leave the Catholic Church over the birth control teaching or the divorce teaching. While I was Catholic, like most Catholics, I privately dissented and I disregarded those teachings. Instead, it was the appalling state of the Roman liturgy plus a desire for a more mystical form of Christianity that led me to the Eastern Church.

Next, on to Arthur�s displeasure. Arthur, I don�t care about ecclesiastical �territory.� I want to be in a mystical and liturgically reverent Church. I don�t see that in Roman Catholicism because of the upheavals since Vatican II, especially the liturgical upheavals. (Yes, there are exceptions. But, they are still mostly exceptions.) And, frankly, if the Roman Catholic Church could do that to itself, it made me think twice about Catholicism overall. Simultaneously, I discovered the Eastern Church. The result is that now I�m joining the Orthodox Church.

I have respect for those who can make Roman Catholicism work as their way to God; I also have respect for those who make Eastern Catholicism work. And those are honest statements.

But, for me and for millions like me: Orthodoxy is what works to get us closer to God. And I --like millions of others-- don�t want to give that up. I and millions of others don't want to give up Orthodoxy in order to be reunited with Rome, because I and millions of others do not want to be under the authority of the Bishop of Rome, because I and millions of others just don't believe the Bishop of Rome's claims to universal jurisdiction and supreme authority. And thus, I and millions of others do not want reunion now with the Catholic Church.

Hence, back to the original topic. I think reunion now would result in one Church or the other giving up something fundamental about its identity.

I realize that many people at this Forum truly want formal reunion between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. I can understand that and I respect that because I used to want that too. And, one day, if our two churches can really work out a way to live together, that would be wonderful. Yet, I find that unlikely.

As I believe Pope Benedict observed while he was still Cardinal Ratzinger, the real hurdle is for each Church to recognize the other�s unique development -- especially over the last 1000 years.

I honestly wonder if that is impossible.

Over the last 1000 years, the papacy (i.e., the papacy�s claim to supremacy in authority and universality in jurisdiction) has become a cornerstone of Roman Catholicism. Yet, that concept of papacy is antithetical to the collegial view of the bishops and authority in the Church that was developed in the Eastern Church. As a practical matter, I can�t see how that basic difference can be overcome. The Eastern Church already views the papacy as a first among equals, but more than that it cannot go.

Meanwhile, the Eastern Catholic Churches are living case histories of what would happen to Orthodoxy if it reunited with Rome. Rome has greatly changed their traditions; and even now they worry if they can restore the married priesthood in North America.

To Review:
--a messed up Liturgy, reflecting (and creating) a messed up theology
-- while insisting on universal jurisdiction and supreme authority for its main bishop
-- while substantially altering the traditions of the Eastern Catholics:
None of these makes for a persuasive argument to me and many other Orthodox for reunion now with Roman Catholicism.


Finally, there is BOB�s point: the words of Christ that we should all be one. My brother, I honestly don�t know how --as a practical matter-- we of this era can fulfill that commandment. The only thing I can think of is for us to love one another and to leave to Christ the rest.

-- John

I think prayer is the most effective way to reunion, otherwise I don't see how we can accomdate one another's "unique development".

I'm EC and attend a RC student group and though this group is well-formed in RC doctrine, theology and history there tends to be a pooh poohing away of legitimate differences between EO and RC, as if a wand could just wave them away.We know what they are so I won't take up space reiterating them. They don't seem to understand just how important these differences are to EO and EC. (It probably works the other way around also)Though I also realize that though EC follow EO theology, etc. there is still a difference between being EO and EC, just as there is a difference between EC and RC.
Still, there are wiser people than I who can probably untangle these contentious points , but it just seems to me that it'll take a miracle to do so in a way that respects both Churches' current development and places them on equal footing. Sounds negative, but on the contrary, I beleive in miracles.

John,

Well said. My view is basically the same.

Joe