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Dec 29th, 2019
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Bill from Pgh Member
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Bill from Pgh Member
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Dear Amigo Amado,
Well, North America has a strong Catholic culture. Quebec is also "Catholic" but it is hardly a place for Catholics to "live, work and raise a family" as it is really quite "un-Catholic."
How meaningful are the numbers you cite? Are baptismal records good indicators of the number of practicing Catholics there really are around, enough to make an impact on our society or whether they are informed about their faith so as to not join other denominations and sects?
Those statistics really don't say anything.
As for EC decline, there are various reasons for that and I, for one, tend to see it in terms of a cultural process of assimilation pressures for the most part.
A 'former Catholic' is also someone who no longer practices his or her faith, but has his or her name recorded on a parish register for having been baptized there.
If we have so many Catholics in North America - then where is what one would expect to be an analogous, strong spiritual impact of such a thriving, spiritual community of committed Christians?
RC missionaries should stay here and evangelize their own people beyond the practice of Sunday Mass (if that).
Don't go to Russia and other places on the pretext that the Latin peoples there need lots more priests. And if you do go, then have some basic respect for the religion/culture of that place.
Have a great day.
Alex Dear Alex, Quite sadly, as I see it, you could substitute "North America" and "Catholic" with any continent and church/denomination and the same holds true. Christianity for the most part has taken a back seat to secularism. Christ help us, Bill
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Bless, Father Archimandrite!
You mean that the RC's don't consider Orthodox to be Christians? They need to go and proselytize from among them?
What don't the RC's concentrate on North America first? As someone once said, the two largest religious groups here are: Catholics and former Catholics.
Alex C'mon, Alex! I'm sure you know by now that we Catholics consider the Orthodox to be Christians. Currently, only the SSPX / SSJK look at the Orthodox as potential proselytes. In contrast, the Orthodox can't even agree on whether Catholics are baptized Christians. Well, this is only relatively true- I know a some RC's (not X's) who do not consider the Orthodox "orthodox." Fortunately, they are in a minority. My personal belief is that all of the Catholic, Orthodox, Orientale Orthodox who have valid orders & sacraments are true Churches. I guess I do not mind the Latin Rite having a Patriarch there. I think it is more strange that we have both a Ukrainian and Ruthenian Archeparchy in the US. And as far as I am concerned, just from a practical standpoint, I would like to see one jurisdiction for all Greek Catholics in the US. to me, that is a geater concern frankly than whether or not there is a Latin Patriarch. We would be much more effective in sharing resources and evangelizing and growing the Byzantine Church in America if we did.
Last edited by lanceg; 12/18/07 06:15 PM.
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I am a firm believer in freedom of religion. If people wish - voluntarily and without pressure - to join this or that religion, that is their decision. Nevertheless, there is a problem.
By a combination of enticement and coercion, the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem has for many decades enticed and coerced members of other Christian Churches - including Churches already in full communion with Rome! - into the Latin Church. This is not unique to the Holy Land; one could also discuss what goes on in India and in Russia, and in certain other places.
That in turn raises a serious question: why is it that these instances of enticement and coercion of Eastern Catholics to become Latins, while Latins who wish to become Eastern Catholics must practically jump through flaming hoops to accomplish their desire? Freedom of religion must work both ways, or it risks becoming highly dubious and the occasion of grave cynicism.
Fr. Serge
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Father Serge,
Bless. I'd say a part of the problem is that many Latin priests are ignorant of the canons regarding the Eastern Churches, while Eastern priests know them quite well. I'd say the practical thing to do, especially regarding the situation in India, where the majority of priests are of the Eastern Churches but are forced to mission for the Latin Church, is to ignore the "law" and create Eastern missions and convert directly into the Eastern Churches. Eventually the "law" will come around, and since the focus of Canon Law is not about the Law but about the good of the faithful, I am sure no one will really care in the long term. If we don't do this, eventually the Eastern Churches will disappear.
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And which team should be expelled from Chicago - the Cubs or the White Sox?  That's a nice thought, but who should submit their resignation? The Armenians, the Syriacs, the Latins, the Greeks, the Maronite, the Melkite, etc? No, I don't think there needs to be duplicate Patriarchs, East or West.
Ung Adding to that, which bishop of Cleveland or Pittsburgh should step down? 
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As for Russia, I've met various people who showed me pamphlets being distributed (by Catholic nuns and male religious) at gatherings at which Orthodox were present that were overt attempts at proselytization. My in-laws saw this themselves and were quite shocked. When they asked the Latin priest why he wouldn't at least "convert the Orthodox to Eastern Catholicism" he replied that "That isn't my tradition." Perhaps this is because the majority of the Roman Rite Catholics in Russia are really Polish. We all know that there has been little love lost between the Russians and the Poles over the centuries. I am curious as to why the hierarchy of the Russian Catholic church was disestablished, however. I know it was supposedly done so as to "facilitate" �cumenism...
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I am a firm believer in freedom of religion. If people wish - voluntarily and without pressure - to join this or that religion, that is their decision. Nevertheless, there is a problem.
By a combination of enticement and coercion, the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem has for many decades enticed and coerced members of other Christian Churches - including Churches already in full communion with Rome! - into the Latin Church. This is not unique to the Holy Land; one could also discuss what goes on in India and in Russia, and in certain other places.
That in turn raises a serious question: why is it that these instances of enticement and coercion of Eastern Catholics to become Latins, while Latins who wish to become Eastern Catholics must practically jump through flaming hoops to accomplish their desire? Freedom of religion must work both ways, or it risks becoming highly dubious and the occasion of grave cynicism.
Fr. Serge Father, bless- yes we not only jump through flaming hoops, but the process takes SO long.
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The question is - have the RC's who proselytize Orthodox Christians read that document?
Can't speak for the Holy Land - that is Fr. Serge's domain (the Holy Land, not Holy Eire, that is).
As for Russia, I've met various people who showed me pamphlets being distributed (by Catholic nuns and male religious) at gatherings at which Orthodox were present that were overt attempts at proselytization. My in-laws saw this themselves and were quite shocked. When they asked the Latin priest why he wouldn't at least "convert the Orthodox to Eastern Catholicism" he replied that "That isn't my tradition."
Again, I don't see what a plethora of Vatican documents has to do with any of this.
Alex No I am not still kicking my puppies! I mean yes I have quit... I mean, I never did... Such a question to ask! Anyone here currently proseltizing Russian Orthodox or Greek Orthodox in Jerusalem, please raise your hand and answer our venerable and esteemed brother's question... Anyone? As it stands now, jurisdictions overlap in places, both sides proezelitize, and sometimes a Palestinian prelate called a patriarch is just a Palestinian prelate... Has Patriarch Michael gone on record attempting to assert he is the rightful heir to the Pentarchy and the only true and legitimate Christian patriarchal authority in Jerusalem? How many folks call themselves Patriarch of Jerusalem? (I think 5) Heck, how many call themselves bishop of Chicago? (I think more still! For fun do we want to count the Episcopal and Lutheran bishops?)
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Catholic Gyoza Member
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And which team should be expelled from Chicago - the Cubs or the White Sox? That's a nice thought, but who should submit their resignation? The Armenians, the Syriacs, the Latins, the Greeks, the Maronite, the Melkite, etc? No, I don't think there needs to be duplicate Patriarchs, East or West.
Ung Adding to that, which bishop of Cleveland or Pittsburgh should step down? As a St. Louisan I'd say both!
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I must apologize to everyone. I've been feeling under the weather since Sunday evening and failed to notice the exact wording of the question addressed in this thread: Why does the Latin Patriach of Jerusalem exit? I was unaware that the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem is exiting, but I sincerely wish him a pleasant (one-way) trip! Vale! Fr. Serge
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Well, if that is true, I know a quick way to end the schism! :-) Have the EOC elect a Bishop of Rome and have the RCC elect a Patriarch of Constantinople and let both sides proclaim themselves winner.
On a more serious note, in the case where there there are multiple jurisdictions (Antioch, Alexandria, etc.), some one above got it right: each group believes itself to be the true church and each wants to be the winner (however each group defines winning) when the dust clears!
Last edited by johnzonaras; 12/21/07 10:49 AM.
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With all due respect, folks, if we're going to talk about freedom of religion, then, yes, it needs to work in all directions.
When I sought to convert from Eastern Orthodoxy to Catholicism, I was compelled to enter Byzantine Ruthenian Catholicism, as opposed to my choice of the Roman Latin Catholic church. I am also required now to undergo an official change of rite, if I wish to switch. I'm not seeing that this is any easier for me then it is for folks going in the other direction.
Also, I don't think there is nothing wrong with Catholics seeking to bring non-Catholics into the Catholic Church, and I've had a curial priest at the Vatican confirm that for me.
Just to take one example, the Coming Home Network seeks to bring all sorts of folks into Catholicism. While most of their work is directed toward Protestants, they also include Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox in their mission, and they take credit for bringing a number of Eastern Orthodox into Catholicism.
Best to all,
Robster
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yes we not only jump through flaming hoops, but the process takes SO long. How come I wasn't told about it taking a long time?  hawk, batting down the flames on his pants
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When I sought to convert from Eastern Orthodoxy to Catholicism, I was compelled to enter Byzantine Ruthenian Catholicism, as opposed to my choice of the Roman Latin Catholic church. I am also required now to undergo an official change of rite, if I wish to switch. I'm not seeing that this is any easier for me then it is for folks going in the other direction. It goes the other way, too: we have someone converting from Lutheran to EC in my parish, and he has to first convert to RC, then change rite. The local RC bishop (Pepe) doesn't seem to think much of that requirement, and these leave his desk (signed) about as soon as they get there . . . hawk
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