www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West unity of Catholic and Orthodox Churches is urgent

I guess that when one leaves something one did not like, and finds something precious to them, they fear assimilation.

I am starting to now understand the fear and disdain some converts have towards unity with the Roman Catholic Church..

Fear is the biggest detremment towards uniting any estranged body/persons/etc. that exists. Trust takes years to earn, and I am confident that Pope John Paul II broke down the wall of suspicions that held us captive for more than a millenium, and that his saintly nature initiated a sense of trust. I believe that Pope Benedict is also a saintly man, and is carrying on the brotherly love and healing.

I always hoped that Roman Catholic converts would be ambassadors of good will in the move for *spiritual* unity within the Orthodox church, because of the many unfair and innacurate statements and fallacies of ignorant people that circulate about what the Roman Catholics believe and do not believe.

Truth and openess about the good, as well as the bad, is paramount in any relationship.

I have met many converts in the Greek church who are quiet, but are also good ambassadors--some even have close relations that are Roman Catholic priests!

As I have said on occasion--our opinions, our biases, etc. are based on our personal experiences in life. We need to understand that to understand each other.

Alice

ALICE:

Well put!! Now you can understand why there are many of who believe you to be such an ambassador.

BOB

Alice,

Pope John Paul II was a great and holy man and I believe that Pope Benedict XVI is as well. The problem is not with the individuals, it is with the system. And yes, I do not want to go back to living with a situation where I wonder whether I am doing everything right, where I wonder what canons apply to me and which ones do not, where I obsess over mortal and venial sin, and where I find only confusion over what Eastern Catholics are supposed to believe and do. I consider myself an ambassador of good will. I support Roman Catholics (and Protestants for that matter) in their walk with God and I support unity as long as it is based on truth. We need to realize that unless there is agreement about what is truth, then any unity we have will cause more problems than it will solve.

To give a concrete, practical example: Can you imagine Roman Catholics coming and telling you that you must use NFP or you are a dissenter and horrible, evil person? Can you imagine the condescending attitude that some Roman Catholics will have toward divorced and remarried Orthodox couples? Can you imagine what things will be like when some overly zealous Catholics start trying to push the Latin Rosary, visions and apparitions, indulgences, etc. on you because you are now in communion with them? These are the kinds of problems that Eastern Catholics face. I don't know how many times I had to defend myself when I was told by Roman Catholics that I wasn't a true Catholic or that I was narrow and judgmental because I wasn't all gung-ho over indulgences, Fatima apparition, etc. etc.

Until we develop a common, spiritual ecclesial culture, there can't be reunion because the faith is just practiced in ways that are too different (at least at this point in history).

Joe

And to give you another real-life example of how our ecclesial cultures are different; when I was in the hospital several years ago suffering from severe depression and suicidal thoughts, our parish (Melkite) priest told my wife that if she thought she needed to leave me, she'd get an annulment no problem. And the thing is that he was right. For all the talk about "a marriage is presumed valid unless proven otherwise" I know that there are all sorts of subjective grounds that could be appealed to in order to nuffily my marriage. Do I want to belong to a Church that says, "oh by the way, the past 12 years of your life have all been a lie. You were never married?" In fact, I know right now that if Wendy wanted to return to the Catholic Church, she could probably divorce me, get an annulment, or even use the Pauline priviledge or Petrine priviledge.

My point in bringing this up is that Roman Catholic Scholastic and moral theology really affects the lives of people. This approach to theology and spirituality has caused great harm in the lives of people.

Joe

Joe,

Most Catholics that I grew up with, in an area that is more predominantly Catholic than the US, don't give a second thought to ABC/NFP or divorce. Most Catholics I know use ABC or have been sterilized and have someone in their families who are divorced and remarried.

So what does this say about current Catholic ecclesial culture? Wouldn't reunion with the Orthodox at this time just solidify the dissent against those unpopular papal teachings? After all, if we go into full communion and the Catholics find out that Orthodox don't have to listen to the pope on birth control, then why should they have to? And if their parish priest gives them a hard time, they will just join an Orthodox parish.

Joe

It may take a few generations yet, but the role of the Papacy *will* have to change, and the legalistic approach will have to soften to something more like what we know.

I have not had the hurtful experiences you and others have had with Roman Catholics, but maybe that is because I was never Catholic. Religious zealots, fundamentalists, and activist types tend to be obnoxious, judgemental and hateful in Orthodoxy just as much as they are in Roman Catholicism.

I don't see unity going beyond 'spiritual' unity, regarding each other as 'sister churches' and being just a bit more close than we are today. That is why the model of ecclesiology of the first millenium is the focus of analysis by our able representatives in this movement.

Regards,
Alice

Alice, perhaps you're right. Would being spiritually united mean communing together? I can see people still being bound to their church's practices and beliefs, so a person couldn't run to an Orthodox church because they're unhappy with a Catholic teaching they way you can go from one parish to another. In fact, that should be discouraged. Good fences make good neighbors.

Wow .. that was a long post John.

You should make long posts more often I got a lot from it.

Thanks.
-ray

Ecumenical Ambassador Alice.

I like that.

-ray

Hi Indigo,

I believe that intercommunion is our ultimate goal...one which we were very close to having in the 1990's with the Balamand Agreement...because we were so close before, I believe that there is a very good chance that we will get there again soon.

I absolutely agree with you about keeping our particular disciplines and ecclesiologies separate, and I like your analogy of good fences making good neighbors!

Regards,
Alice

How will intercommunion work when one Church requires people to abstain from marital relations on Saturday evening, pray, have gone to confession recently and fast from midnight whereas the other Church requires only that they fast one hour before receiving communion (since communion doesn't normally occur in the Liturgy until at least 1 hr from the beginning this is a meaningless requirement) and that they not be conscious of mortal sin, whatever that means? And what do we do when beligerent Catholics come up for communion insisting that they receive in their hand (and I've seen battles at the communion chalice over this one at the Melkite Church where the priest had to refuse the Roman Catholic communion and tell them to go away)?

Our spirituality and discipline is too different for their to be intercommunion at this time or anytime in the near future. I won't go so far as John and say that we are two different religions; but I do agree with the comments that Patriarch Bartholemuel once made that we are "ontologically different," and I think that this is what John was getting at. I do believe that we are as different from Catholicism as we are from Protestantism and that we have three incommensurate forms of Christianity (Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism). I don't think that we have "nearly everything in common," at all. I think that we are two very different and disparate religious cultures. I apologize for any offense I give by saying this but this is just my opinion (which is probably not worth much).

Joe

Dear Joe,

You have not offended me..though I do not think that I can say the same for the many good, pious and inspiring Roman Catholics I have come to know on this forum.

AGAIN--we don't see eye to eye because of different experiences, and how we have reacted to them!

Remember that even different jurisdictions and ethnicities within Orthodoxy look at these issues differently, and I am coming to understand that convert Orthodox feel much differently than cradle Orthodox out of fear of assimilation and being thrown back into a church situation they left.

I will tell this story, not to scandalize, but to show another perspective and experience--that of the husband of a good friend of mine (she is a cradle Orthodox; he was Roman Catholic). Her priest, who is now deceased---may his memory be eternal--gave her then fiancee, holy communion when they were engaged, despite knowing that he was Roman Catholic. He (the fiancee) said that because of this tolerance and acceptance shown him and his faith, he decided on the spot to convert to Orthodoxy.

In the Greek church, the majority of marriages are between RC and Orthodox couples. While I applaud the sacrifice most non-Orthodox spouses make for the sake of their family in converting, (and the majority of priests will absolutely not allow a Roman Catholic to commune with us--just to make that clear) many of them would be thrilled, if they could also commune in their home churches when visiting their Roman Catholic families and visa versa...not to mention being able to avoid the hurt feelings of in-laws that come with the fact that their child had to convert for the spouse...

Again--it boils down to what situations we have experienced or seen. All is a matter of perspective.

You do make a valid point about the disciplines required for approaching the chalice and how different they are. I find fasting for one hour too little, but on the other hand, I know of people who have been given dispensation for a very light breakfast snack because of blood sugar problems, medications, etc. in the Orthodox church.

Again, I will reiterate, that I will leave that and other issues up to the wisdom of our very capable cleric and hierarchal representatives (of both faiths) that are working very hard to 'walk the walk' of unity of the faith in Christ Jesus. I am not a member of that delegation, so, in that light, my posts are not worth much--take them as you would like!

Regards,
In Christ,
Alice

P.S. Joe--don't worry so much! I feel like I have scared you and upset you with my posts!

Orthodoxy has remained Orthodoxy for millenia--it doesn't like change--so it will definitely not be changing any time soon--even if we find some spiritual type of union with the West!

Haven't you ever heard the joke about how many Orthodox priests it takes to change a lightbulb..well, I don't remember the whole joke, but to get to the jist/punchline of it: the Orthodox priests say "Change ? WHAT is THAT !?!"

(sorry for butchering it, but I am sure you got it)

JOE:

Forgive me for the insertion of another word in your quote.

A number of points I'd like to offer. (1) You are not offensive in your assertions or opinions. Authentic ecumenism DEMANDS that we "let it all hang out." There are those who would overlook many of these things as if unity in the Faith demanded that we hold our noses and close our eyes to those things that startle us or damage our religious sensibilities or scandalize us. (2) The things that you mention are the very things that make many of us in the Latin Church cringe: laxness in the reception of and treatment of the Holy Mysteries; lack of any sense of the need for confession; lack of any sense of living the Faith by having some set of required practices outside of Sunday Liturgy (I once stirred up the hornet's nest by asserting that it seemed that only two things were necessary to being a Latin Catholic--attending Sunday Mass and siding with the Pope in whatever he said. Didn't win any awards for making friends and influencing people.) (3) Part of the reason we NEED people like you is that you are not afraid to stand up and say the the Emperor has no clothes--to borrow a phrase from an old tale.

And the people who think that the Orthodox Church is just a different form of Catholic--having everything but the Pope--need the bucket of ice water poured over them agaian and again until they wake up to the fact that it just ain't so--and that's for emphasis, not bad grammar.

I just want you to remember that your heard it from me the next time you post and think that you've stepped outside the lines: --"You go, man!!!!" This is what I was alluding to in another thread when I suggested that the form of an eventual unity might be something no one has yet conceived and that people who think the Oriental Congregation will be sending letters to the Eastern Churches in the future had better go back to the drawing board.

In Christ,

BOB

Ditto, Joe. Someone has to point out the down to earth challenges to intercommunion and I can't think of anyone who does a better job than you.

Alice, I can see what you mean about hurt feelings due to conversions, maybe that is one of the things that will change, and yet folks need to understand that whether conversion rules change or not each church's disciplines must be respected regardless of whether they like it or not. I think we'll have to agree to disagree about some aspects.

Indigo