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If any woman in the history of the church was qualified to be a priest it was Our Lord's own Blessed Mother, AND he did not make her a priest ! I think that says it all, and of course we know the Blessed Mother didn't accuse her Divine Son of sexual discrimination.

I will stay with what Bishop +Kallistos has said that although he does not believe that the ordination of women is appropriate personally, he has not been convinced by the arguments against and that the issue should still be debated in the Church.

When I was younger, I was quite the traditionalist Roman Catholic and was vigorously against the ordination of women but getting to know women who have been in ministry (who did not look at priesthood as a "right" but as a Call from Our Lord although there are some who think this way) and also not being convinced by the anti arguments, really made me rather neutral on this issue. I certainly don't believe it is something that should be considered as a matter of "infallibility" but of Church order and discipline.

If any woman in the history of the church was qualified to be a priest it was Our Lord's own Blessed Mother, AND he did not make her a priest ! I think that says it all, and of course we know the Blessed Mother didn't accuse her Divine Son of sexual discrimination.

Great one Lawrence !

I just showed your post to a friend, he resonded by saying: "and of course she's a mom, so what woman would be good enough for her Son."

Thought that was cute

Bob,

Your point is well-taken. The differing views on what constitutes validity in orders (although not germane to the ordination of women, as both the Orthodox-Cyprianic and Catholic-Augustinian theories would reject this), would definitely have the effect of mitigating claims to presbyteral/episcopal and, consequently, sacramental validity by the independent/autocephalous/vagante "Catholic" and "Orthodox" movements.

Many years,

Neil

Although I am not a proponent of female ordination, I have to agree with some of what Robert (Hi, Bob, good to see you posting ) and Brian have said.

I have known female ministers of several denominations who, without question, see themselves as doing God's work and serve their congregations in a faithful and spiritual manner that has, undoubtedly, brought people to God and kept them with Him.

While we can reject the idea of female priests in Catholicism and Orthodoxy, I think we must be careful neither to judge the motives nor the individuals who believe otherwise as necessarily prideful or inherently evil.

As with almost every belief system, including those which are not Christian, and every variant created from upon what we believe to be the True Faith, there are persons who believe themselves to be doing the Lord's work as they see and understand it and, unquestionably, some of them will have a sincere spiritual effect for good on some of those with whom they come in contact. It is neither our place to judge their efforts as fruitless nor to be uncharitable in speaking of them.

Many years,

Neil

Pope John Paul II�s Apostolic Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, �On Reserving Priestly Ordination To Men Alone,� affirms the teaching of Christ that the Church has no authority to ordain women to the priesthood. One of the last statements in the Letter reads as follows:

�Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church�s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church�s faithful."

I understand he regarded this as binding and not subject to change. That by virtue of his office he declared it to be as he taught and no longer open to question.

The root of the virulent reaction to the scheduled ordinations (which of course are not valid ordinations in the eyes of any member of the Catholic Churches {East or West} who accepts to scriptural and canonical disciplines) is the fact that the parties to these invalid ordinations are conducting them IN THE NAME OF THE CHURCH.

Imagine someone selling drugs in your neighborhood and doing so in your name. Imagine a thief leaving your business card behind at each home that he burgularizes. Imagine a child molester telling the victimized child that his name is your name.

This is the root of the targeting of these parties (did I mention that I was thinking to use a torpedo? ) and the judgement upon their intentions, albeit sometimes unfair, as our dear brother Neil points out.

Nonetheless, just as I will quickly eliminate (by any means necessary - to quote Malcom X) the drug dealer, burgular, or child molester who destroys my name in the process of his sordid activities (without pausing to question his intentions), the Church must take active steps to combat the hijacking of Her good name.

To wit: if the name weren't so good and so prized, people wouldn't be attempting to hijack it. Does anyone expect to gain positive press if they were to conduct the invalid ordinations in the name of the Jim Jones Sect or the Millenialists or the Hare Krishnas, etc, etc.

To use a business analogy: The Church should and must protect the copyright on her product. She is the bride of Christ and He, Christ, deserves no less from His bride.

With love in Christ,
Andrew

Andrew, at one time I was organist for a Church of Christ (Disciples of Christ) congregation - probably one of the most liberal denominations in the country. The pastor had a great deal of compassion and love toward homosexual members of the congregation and sought to affirm and uplift them by showing them the love of Christ. Did he really show the love of Christ to them? I don't think he did. The love of Christ says, "go and sin no more," not "it's OK, God understands." Again, I think we confuse noble and even, admirable, human values and qualities with the love of Christ. For example, compassion is a wonderful human quality, but when it condones and promotes sin, it isn't a Christ-like quality.

Charles:

It's good to know you eventually found out that THAT "Church of Christ" you played the organ for was not the real deal!

Amado

Oh, I knew that to begin with. They needed an organist badly enough to not mind hiring a Byzantine Catholic. But they never really understood why I couldn't receive communion with them. They said that was "man's law, not God's." We had to agree to disagree on many things.

The Church has spoken definitively "NO ORDINATON OF WOMEN" the matter is settled the dispute is over!
There is no need for discussion.
Stephanos I
Those who press for ordination of women or attempt to have themselves ordained should do so "outside" the Church, if they do not then they should be forced to leave.
Any Religious Order which refuses to comply or shelters these women who attempt to ordain themselves should be surpressed.

Here are a few links to articles concerning the ordination of women from Eastern Christian perspectives:

ORDINATION OF WOMEN? – Schmemann / Hopko
http://www.stmichaelsgeneva.org/Women & Orthodoxy--Priesthood.htm

ORDINATION OF WOMEN? – Armenian Orthodox priest
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/1089/womenordination.html

ORDINATION OF WOMEN? – Kallistos Ware
http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/priesthood_ware.htm

Lazareno

Here is a link to the Schmemenn and Hopko articles on women's ordination: http://www.stmichaelsgeneva.org/Women & Orthodoxy--Priesthood.htm

Lazareno,

You broke the link - here is the corrected link:

Women & The Priesthood [stmichaelsgeneva.org]

Many years,

Neil