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Is the teaching on the "Ordination of Women" difinitive? Although not declared "Ex Cathedra" it is still binding and irreformable according to the Papal Encyclical "Ordinationis Sacredotalis" issued by Pope John Paul II on the 22 of May on the Solemn Feast of Pentecost 1994.
"Priestly Ordination, which hands on the office entrusted by Christ to his Apostles of teaching, sanctifying, and governing the faithful, has in the Catholic Church from the beginning always been reserved to men alone.
'She (the Church) holds that it is not admissible to ordain women to the priesthood for very fundamental reasons."
1. The teaching of Sactred Scripture.
2 Tradition of the Church. (The constant praxis of the Church through out the ages.
3. Her living teaching authority.

Pope John Paul II then goes on to teach definitively; "Wherefore, inorder that ALL DOUBT may be romoved regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethern I declare that the Church has NO AUTHORITY WHATSOEVER to confer priestly ordination on women and this judgement is to be difinitively held by all of Christ's faithful."

The Holy Spirt never leads one in way of heresy, apostasy, or schism. These feigned ordinations, like any ordination done outside of the Church of God are entirely "null and void".

Stephanos I

There was a "Dubium" submitted to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on October 28th 1995.
Dubium:
Whether the teaching that the Catholic Church has no authority whatsoever to confer ordination on women, which is presented in the Apostolic Letter "Ordinatio Sacerdotalis" to be held definitively, is to be understood as belonging to the deposit of the faith.
Responsum: In the affirmative.
This teaching requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal magesterium. Thus, in the present circumstances, the Roman Pontiff, exercising his proper office of confirming the bretheren has handed on this same teaching by a formal declaration, explictly stating what is to be held always, everywhere, and by all , as belonging to the deposit of faith.
Stephanos I

LOL, good point! I hope they have fun in a useless and disobedient activity. :rolleyes:

Stephanos, why is O.S. not considered infallible? I always thought it was, from the way it was phrased.

To respond to Bernardo's original post, if these women plan to "defy the Vatican," I doubt that the Vatican or any of us would view them as "Roman Catholic priests." To be a "Roman Catholic priest," well, you DO have to meet the Vatican's qualifications, don't you?

For the record, I'm probably some kind of "happy, conservative feminist" in that I believe in equal pay and equal job opportunity for people of equal qualifications, regardless of their sex ( or age, color, national origin, and all the other categories in the Civil Right Act). Of course, maybe I'm "happy" because I've never been discriminated against (that I've ever noticed).

I think the problem is that a lot of women (womyn, wimmin, whatever silly spelling they want to adopt) seem to grow a bad feminist viewpoint that eminates from a core belief where they actually see themselves as inferior to men. So they lash out at men, rather than working toward making themselves better human beings. They think that things that abusing and belittling themselves through practices like abortion is "right" and worth fighting for. They couldn't be more wrong, though. A moral woman is a strong woman - and these are deluded, weak women.

Now, I said I believe people who are equally qualified should be able to compete equally for jobs. Women do not meet the basic qualifications for Roman Catholic priesthood, people don't compete to be priests, and the priesthood isn't a career. (It's an austere life of service.) Most men do not meet the qualifications for priesthood, either, and as you know many who do never make it through seminary or to the priesthood.

Being a priest is not a career, it's not a job opportunity - if done well, it is putting oneself in a very humble, prayerful position of service and at the beck and call of one's flock and becoming part of their lives, their problems, their joys and their dilemmas. This is all part of being a spiritual leader. If one is sincere in one's vocation, then these women would do well to serve as sisters or as members of a tertiary order or in some other capacity that they are qualified for.

Serving in a church is not the same as competing for a job - and it shouldn't be. If this is just a way to self-aggrandize, then these women should really engage in more prayerful contemplation about their actions and desires.

I pray that these women seeking illicit ordination learn the virtues of humility and humble service. They are making spectacles of themselves through mock ordination. It is hard to imagine they have come to this point through an honest desire to serve God's people and they are simply not qualified for the "position" of priest. There are many other opportunities to serve in the church and those who seek "status" are probably ill-suited for any of them.

I dunno... just how I see it... and I'm rambling! ;-)

Rillian wrote:
"I�m at a loss to understand what value deaconesses might bring to Orthodoxy"

I think its time for Deaconesses to make a comeback in the parishes. To truly understand the value of deaconesses you need to study the lives of the ones that lived in the early Church. St. Nonna was a deaconess and tireless worker for the church. Through her piety she converted her husband to Christianity and all of her children were saints including the famous early church father St. Gregory the Theologian of Nazianzus.

To understand what role deaconesses may play beyond some of the simple tasks mentioned in this thread, read about her life and her work. Read about the other deaconesses.

I think its time that the men step back from the monopoly they hold and bring the women back in as they were in the early years of Christianity.

Dear Nonna,

Please forgive me for briefly digressing this thread but I can't help but point out that monikers are funny in that many times one reads something different in to them...case in point: you mention St. Nonna (thank you for bringing her to our attention), but I always thought your moniker was meant to describe you as a 'grandmother' in Italian!(now you will probably tell me that you don't have a drop of Italian blood in you and that you don't have grandchildren!)

Fondly,
In Christ,
Alice

Right and right! ;-) I am Carpatho-Rusyn and the Orthodox choose names from the bible or from the saints and so my parents gave me the name of Nonna. It is used by the Russians, though it is not a common one and they have taken it from St. Nonna who's feast day is (Aug. 5 old calendar) August 18. There is also a celtic St. Nonna, but I don't really know much about her.

(how do I get those message icons to work?)

Nonna,

Let me quote a little more of what I said

Let me also say I�m aware St. Nektarios did in fact ordain deaconesses. Now let me post a summary I came across of what deaconesses were responsible for:

The deaconess had specific duties. Among them was to instruct privately female candidates for baptism, to assist at their baptism which was by total immersion, they did the anointing with oil at the baptism as it was not considered proper for the male clergy to touch a woman, they visited and cared for the sick, they were present at interviews of women with the bishops or priests, they dismissed women catechumens from the church and kept general order in the women's section of the church (men and women were segregated as they were up to about 25 years ago in our churches in America), and they did other duties delegated by the bishop like helping the poor. They were in a sense the educators of women in the faith and social workers. Deaconesses were ordained in the Eastern Church as late as the 12th century. The office was disused in the Western Church somewhat earlier.

So my question Nonna, which I ask in all earnestness, is what role do you see deaconesses playing in parish life (i.e. outside of a monastery)? What could they do that women cannot do now?

I am familiar with the life of St. Nonna and the other deaconesses (along with many of the female hieromartyrs and saints granted the title of Isapostle by the church). In my experience, nearly everything these deaconesses did can be fulfilled by women today. In my parish women play a prominent role in every ministry of the parish.

Andrew

Let's assume for the purposes of argument that your statement is true: that women already perform all the roles of Deaconesses today.

Well then. How that can be the basis for the conclusion that the office of deaconess should not be revived? If anything it supports the argument for the revival of the deaconess. If women feel called and they seek the recognition, why not grant it to them, especially since the "change" being sought isn't really that much of a change.

To you it is not necessary to have deaconesses, but if its something women want why not grant it to them?

I like what Matushka Belonick wrote once:
Orthodoxy is not the preservation of rules and customs. Orthodoxy is a belief in and personal relationship with the Triune God and a resulting approach to life on earth. Our ancestors approached difficult issues armed with listening hearts, discerning minds, applicability of ancient prophecies to present conditions, flexibility, and love. In any issue arising from within or without the Church body, may we have the grace and courage to do the same as we heed the voice of the Holy Spirit.

Oh another thought.

The same social changes that have allowed men to expand on the type of work they did, could also provide the basis for an expanded understanding of the work of deaconesses.

Dear Nonna,

Personally, I agree with you!

I think women should be given as many functions in the Church as possible!

During the Soviet Yoke in Russia, the Church membership was about 85% women who also defended the Church etc.

There is a story about Russian women who approached an Orthodox bishop who signed the "Sergian" agreement with the Soviet government.

But instead of kissing the Cross he held out, they spit on his shoes, one by one, instead.

When an Underground Orthodox Bishop heard of this, he was noted to comment, "Women did that? Thank God for our women! Who else would defend our Church?!"

Alex

Alex thank you for your reply.

You can go even further back in history. Christ drew women to his side. They were with him through his work and his suffering. The women were the first to see the Risen Christ.

All the reasons give as barriers to women serving in official roles in the church seem to be just excuses. If humans did not inherit Adam's guilt as the Orthodox teach, the logical corollary is that humans also did not inherit Eve's guilt. If they had inherited her guilt, would the women really have been the first to experience the Resurrection?

just a thought.

Oh well the ladies on their boat are just playing dress ups. They sail out into the middle of the river and come back to the shore in the same state they set out with...as laity.

"I think its time for Deaconesses to make a comeback in the parishes."

We do. They are called nuns or more correctly, sisters.