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Re: Why does Mary wear red in eastern iconography? bergschlawiner #409744 12/02/14 06:05 PM
Joined: Nov 2001 Posts: 26,405 Likes: 37 Canada Orthodox Catholic Member
Orthodox Catholic Member Joined: Nov 2001 Posts: 26,405 Likes: 37 Canada	Originally Posted by bergschlawiner Besides Limanova, a somewhat "latinized" affair, what other so called apparitions have there been in the East besides the Holy Virgin Protection in Constantinople? How do we know "apparitions" are not some form of imagination. Very interesting question! The Holy Protection apparitions at Constantinople are actually several in number. There have been others in Ukraine and Russia (most notably the apparition at Pochaiv during the Turkish assault on the monastery). The vast majority of apparitions in the Orthodox East have been in conjunction with the very many miraculous and locally-venerated icons of the Most Holy Theotokos. Such apparitions actually take second place after the miracle-working icons which are themselves glorified (or canonized) and can have more than one feast-day (the Vladimir Mother of God has six or seven days, if my memory is correct), and Churches are built in their honour - just as they are in honour of Saints. Whenever an apparition is associated with an icon, it is commemorated in the menaion "life" of the icon and may also be added to the calendar. One example is the Feast of St Nicholas which is coming up where the popular icon of St Nicholas flanked by OLGS Jesus Christ on one side and the Most Holy Theotokos on the other (and there are several miraculous icons of St Nicholas like this depiction including that of "Nicholas the Wet") and this icon is actually a representation of the apparition experienced by the Council Fathers in 325 AD when they censured Nicholas for punching Arius in the face upon his condemnation as a heretic. The Fathers removed Nicholas' Gospel and Bishop's mantle for behaviour unbecoming a Bishop when they saw Christ and His Mother appear on either side of Nicholas holding the very things they had just removed from him - as if to tell the Fathers to return these to Nicholas (which they did, of course). I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the Christian East has a greater liturgical emphasis in its dealing with apparitions and icons which serve to build up the entire Church. Alex

Re: Why does Mary wear red in eastern iconography? Tryzub Rurikid #409745 12/02/14 06:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2001 Posts: 26,405 Likes: 37 Canada Orthodox Catholic Member
Orthodox Catholic Member Joined: Nov 2001 Posts: 26,405 Likes: 37 Canada	Originally Posted by Tryzub Rurikid Originally Posted by bergschlawiner Can't help asking about how Mary appears or is believed to appear in apparitions,usually western, always dressed in the style and colors of Lourdes, Fatima and even Litmanova looking nothing like in icons! The depictions of Mary from Lourdes, Fatima, Litmanova and Medjugoria of Her dressed in white robe with a blue veil or all in white and similar style ALL come the descriptions of the visionaries who saw her and has NOTHING to do with the Icons which were made of her afterward or even before for that matter. It has NOTHING to do with 'Western' ideals or 'style' of depictions but what the visionaries said they actually saw and described of these apparitions of Her. The visions came FIRST, the Icons of these PARTICULAR visions of Mary were made much later. . . Icons before these apparitions were based on artistic representations which have been reproduced over hundreds of years and I do not know if any were based on actual apparitions (or visions) of Mary... A good historian in iconography could likely answer that one if there is any written record of such happenings which would have been recorded or even 'passed down' in folkloric history - but it is possible this could be true of the 'Black Virgin' Mary I would think. . . It is possible that there could have been much earlier apparitions but I am not aware of any such 'records' going over 800-1000 years ago as Icons have been around a long time. . . I do know that some Saints, Blessed (Beatified) individuals well before Fatima and Lourdes were said to have had 'visions' (In the 'Eastern' world, I think St Alexander Nevsky was one of them... but I do not recall 'who' he saw or if it was in a 'dream' that he had these 'visions' but I do recall reading about this... Visions in dreams are also acceptable in descriptive depictions and can be represented in art.) Best, Christine Dear Christine, However, there is clear evidence that a number of such visionaries of apparitions saw the Mother of God as she is depicted in Eastern (and also Western) iconography with features that are "deified" rather than the often "human" depictions that Roman Catholic statues have. St Bernadette clearly affirmed this when she gave her description of how the face of the Mother of God looked (I'm not talking about her clothing or its colours etc.). Alex

Re: Why does Mary wear red in eastern iconography? Orthodox Catholic #409749 12/02/14 07:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2014 Posts: 82 Canada T Tryzub Rurikid Member
Tryzub Rurikid Member T Joined: Nov 2014 Posts: 82 Canada	Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic Originally Posted by bergschlawiner Besides Limanova, a somewhat "latinized" affair, what other so called apparitions have there been in the East besides the Holy Virgin Protection in Constantinople? How do we know "apparitions" are not some form of imagination. Very interesting question! The Holy Protection apparitions at Constantinople are actually several in number. There have been others in Ukraine and Russia (most notably the apparition at Pochaiv during the Turkish assault on the monastery). The vast majority of apparitions in the Orthodox East have been in conjunction with the very many miraculous and locally-venerated icons of the Most Holy Theotokos. Such apparitions actually take second place after the miracle-working icons which are themselves glorified (or canonized) and can have more than one feast-day (the Vladimir Mother of God has six or seven days, if my memory is correct), and Churches are built in their honour - just as they are in honour of Saints. Whenever an apparition is associated with an icon, it is commemorated in the menaion "life" of the icon and may also be added to the calendar. One example is the Feast of St Nicholas which is coming up where the popular icon of St Nicholas flanked by OLGS Jesus Christ on one side and the Most Holy Theotokos on the other (and there are several miraculous icons of St Nicholas like this depiction including that of "Nicholas the Wet") and this icon is actually a representation of the apparition experienced by the Council Fathers in 325 AD when they censured Nicholas for punching Arius in the face upon his condemnation as a heretic. The Fathers removed Nicholas' Gospel and Bishop's mantle for behaviour unbecoming a Bishop when they saw Christ and His Mother appear on either side of Nicholas holding the very things they had just removed from him - as if to tell the Fathers to return these to Nicholas (which they did, of course). I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the Christian East has a greater liturgical emphasis in its dealing with apparitions and icons which serve to build up the entire Church. Alex VERY interesting! Great read! Christine

Re: Why does Mary wear red in eastern iconography? Orthodox Catholic #409750 12/02/14 07:55 PM
Joined: Nov 2014 Posts: 82 Canada T Tryzub Rurikid Member
Tryzub Rurikid Member T Joined: Nov 2014 Posts: 82 Canada	Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic Originally Posted by Tryzub Rurikid Originally Posted by bergschlawiner Can't help asking about how Mary appears or is believed to appear in apparitions,usually western, always dressed in the style and colors of Lourdes, Fatima and even Litmanova looking nothing like in icons! The depictions of Mary from Lourdes, Fatima, Litmanova and Medjugoria of Her dressed in white robe with a blue veil or all in white and similar style ALL come the descriptions of the visionaries who saw her and has NOTHING to do with the Icons which were made of her afterward or even before for that matter. It has NOTHING to do with 'Western' ideals or 'style' of depictions but what the visionaries said they actually saw and described of these apparitions of Her. The visions came FIRST, the Icons of these PARTICULAR visions of Mary were made much later. . . Icons before these apparitions were based on artistic representations which have been reproduced over hundreds of years and I do not know if any were based on actual apparitions (or visions) of Mary... A good historian in iconography could likely answer that one if there is any written record of such happenings which would have been recorded or even 'passed down' in folkloric history - but it is possible this could be true of the 'Black Virgin' Mary I would think. . . It is possible that there could have been much earlier apparitions but I am not aware of any such 'records' going over 800-1000 years ago as Icons have been around a long time. . . I do know that some Saints, Blessed (Beatified) individuals well before Fatima and Lourdes were said to have had 'visions' (In the 'Eastern' world, I think St Alexander Nevsky was one of them... but I do not recall 'who' he saw or if it was in a 'dream' that he had these 'visions' but I do recall reading about this... Visions in dreams are also acceptable in descriptive depictions and can be represented in art.) Best, Christine Dear Christine, However, there is clear evidence that a number of such visionaries of apparitions saw the Mother of God as she is depicted in Eastern (and also Western) iconography with features that are "deified" rather than the often "human" depictions that Roman Catholic statues have. St Bernadette clearly affirmed this when she gave her description of how the face of the Mother of God looked (I'm not talking about her clothing or its colours etc.). Alex Thank you! I am very familiar with St Bernadette's life but this is a 'first' for me as I never read anything coming close to this description... - very interesting indeed! Christine

Re: Why does Mary wear red in eastern iconography? Tryzub Rurikid #409756 12/03/14 12:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2001 Posts: 26,405 Likes: 37 Canada Orthodox Catholic Member
Orthodox Catholic Member Joined: Nov 2001 Posts: 26,405 Likes: 37 Canada	Dear Christine, You are very interesting yourself!! Alex

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