www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Should Orthodox Churches in the West celebrate Dec. 25 X-mas?

Fr. David Straut,

There's really no question when December 25th (Julian) currently falls, it is on January 7th Gregorian calendar, although that will change in the far future to January 8th.

By the way, we're you a fan of Abbott and Costello?

Monomakh

I am Orthodox and I cannot even imagine not celebrating on January 7th.
Although my childhood my father took the day of work and we kids got time off school.
Some things are too important to change.

Dear Monomakh,

Yes precisely, 25 December currently falls on 7 January on the secular (and Gregorian) calendar. And it will fall on 9 January from 2101 through 2200, and 10 January from 2201 through 2300, and on 11 January from 2301 through 2500, etc. This is because the Gregorian reform of the calendar abolished leap years in century years which cannot be divided evenly by the number 400, while the Julian Calendar will continue to have leap years every four years without exception.

I am a convinced Old Calendarist, of course. But there are a few situations I really think are unhealthy:

1. Reducing the Church Calendar to one important date: 7 January. We must keep the Church Calendar in its totality, not just Orthodox (or "Russian," or "Ukrainian," or "Serbian") Christmas.

2. Keeping two calendars at once in the same home - "American Christmas" (with all the presents and feasting) and then "Orthodox Christmas" two weeks later. I'm not saying anything here about recognising the Christmas celebrations of family and friends around you, while maintaining the Julian date in your own home. I mean having two celebrations in your own home.

3. Even worse than the above: celebrating Christmas twice liturgically in a parish. That's just schizophrenic!

Yes, I like Abbot and Costello!

Fr David

That's when it is celebrated in the OCA. I personally prefer that because it coincides with the prevailing celebration of Christmas.

-- John

I believe they use both actually. IIRC, the entire Diocese of Alaska remains on the traditional church calendar and in the lower 48 some monasteries do as well. I also believe the cathedral in Washington uses both the revised and the church calendar. There may be other instances as well that I'm not aware of.

I also agree with Fr. David that the importance is not the 7th.

Ditto for the GOA and Greek Orthodox Church of Greece.


I agree wholeheartedly!!! It also makes me happy to be celebrating a major holy day with my brothers and sisters in the rest of the Christian world.

For one brief day, (most of us) become all ONE in Christ Jesus, and the pain of separations, schisms, denominations, and general divisiveness are erased as we rejoice together in He who unites us..

Alice

"3. Even worse than the above: celebrating Christmas twice liturgically in a parish. That's just schizophrenic!"

I would hardly call it schizophrenic. I would call it practical. The ECs are to return to their traditions, so in doing so and celebrating it on the 7th, they're now schizophrenic? It is practical and accommodating for them to celebrate it on the 25th with the vast majority of Christians and the vast majority of those who can readily and easily attend that day, and at the same time they keep and honor the traditional date (which I would think should have pleased Orthodox). When I think how the Lord would view this, I would think it would be pleasing to Him and He wouldn't be viewing them as schizophrenic. I sometimes think the ECs can do nothing to satisfy either the East or the West.

In all charity,
Glad

Note: The quote at the top is not Alice's, rather I entered the text in the wrong box--again.

By the way...this is just a simple and personal feeling from the heart. I am simply happy to be able to say Merry Christmas and celebrate with all my friends and relatives on the same day and I am glad that we don't have different doctrines, theology and/or approaches to this one holy day--the birth of Christ...We all agree on it!

I did not mean to offend anyone on the old calendar, nor did I mean to make any kind of theological, intellectual, or otherwise type of statement. I apologize to those I may have offended and to those may have misconstrued my sentiment.

Again, I am sorry if this wasn't clear...

Just a simple statement of my own happiness,
Alice

What I mean is that Christmas is not a single day. There is a forty day Fast to prepare for its celebration. The Feast itself (in Eastern tradition) lasts 7 days, followed by the Feast of the Circumcision of Christ & St Basil, then 4 days of preparation for the Great Feast of Theophany, then the Feast of Theophany itself. January 7th is an important Feastday: the Synaxsis of St John the Baptist.

You can't celebrate Christmas thirteen days early, then go back to the Fast and preparing to celebrate it again. Conversely, you can't celebrate the whole Christmas/Theophany cycle and then somehow celebrate Christmas once again. (What happens to Synaxis of the Forerunner?) The liturgical year is a beautiful tapestry, an integral whole. You have to pick a side and stick to it.

Fr David Straut

Interesting . . . I had no idea. :-)

-- John

Really? You see, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic because I'm too new here (and to all of this). But this place seemed like a good place to learn, and it's difficult to do that with some of the rhetoric. A better explanation for someone who truly didn't understand the complexities (and I still do see the practicality in it because those celebrating on the 25th may not have been following the fasts and preparations anyway) would've been to explain rather than phrasing it such as the way it was.

Anyway, I'm going to stick to books and instruction from faces I can see which tend to be a little gentler and not get my dander up. Sorry to veer wildly off topic here and apologies to Father David.

Dear Glad,

If you see my post, you will see that I also seemed to upset someone, though they were polite enough to pm me about it.

It seems this calendar business is one of those 'hot' topics--Who knew? So you see, even though I am a cradle Orthodox, I am also learning.

Please don't leave.

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Glad,

No apologies necessary to me. I ask your pardon, however. I did not intend to write anything that hurt anyone. I try to enter deeply into the liturgical cycle in my own life. I forget that not everyone is in the same place. I think Western Christians (and not a few Eastern Christians living in the West) have a different approach to Advent-Christmas-Epiphany than the traditional Eastern approach. For one thing, Western Advent has ceased to be a real fasting season. Again I ask forgiveness of any I may have offended.

Fr David Straut

I had never even heard of the *concept* of fasting in preparation for Christmas before turning east. The western concept of Advent with which I was raised was one of waiting and expectection, but not fasting.

While I'm at it . . .

My oldest daughter (who wandered in as I'm typing [and who will also be changing rite]) overheard recently in a hardware store (of all places) something to the effect of , "As an Eastern Catholic, I get to shop at the after Christmas sales!"

hawk