The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
ElijahHarvest, Nickel78, Trebnyk1947, John Francis R, Keinn
6,150 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
1 members (Erik Jedvardsson), 1,165 guests, and 84 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,506
Posts417,454
Members6,150
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 6 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 299
M
Member
Member
M Offline
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 299
All groups will be considered except people like me who want to do what Pope John Paul II had in mind for the eastern Catholics. traditional women don't count anymore!

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 299
M
Member
Member
M Offline
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 299
I am a bad typist.

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,036
Likes: 4
D
Member
Member
D Offline
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,036
Likes: 4
Originally Posted by MrsMW
Why should they only be sensitive to feminists...I mean women!

"For God is good and loves all men, and additionally the grammatically impaired who are unable to recognize that this includes them."

But I'm not sure the tone will fit that much smile

hawk

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 730
E
Member
Member
E Offline
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 730
Originally Posted by Recluse
Originally Posted by Father David
I have read with interest the one-year evaluations of the 2007 translation of the Divine Liturgy. My observation is that if people detest the translation they will tend to evaluate its reception as disastrous. For me, it would be desirable to have an objective outside observer.

I do not understand this comment. Are you saying that the Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholics should seek the evaluation from someone who is outside your Church such as "other Eastern Catholics", "Roman Catholics", or "protestants"?!?

It seems that objectivity was lacking in its publication. An outside observor means anyone but those who are forced to use it. Non-expert church members are not only incapable of making an honest evaluation, but they also have great difficulty in remaining objective. simply put, it is an attitude that the *little* people are incapable of thinking for themselves. I can't believe that your own church thinks of youns this way. This in itself is a sign of a deeper problem that goes beyond your worship. Your church does, indeed, need reform. And its not another hymn book that will do the trick.

Ed

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,373
U
Member
Member
U Offline
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,373
That has already been accomplished with Fr. Serge's review. For the record, Fr. Serge is not a member of the "Sui Juris Metropolitan Byzantine Church of America".

Christ is Born! Glorify Him!

Ung

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 730
E
Member
Member
E Offline
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 730
Originally Posted by Ung-Certez
That has already been accomplished with Fr. Serge's review. For the record, Fr. Serge is not a member of the "Sui Juris Metropolitan Byzantine Church of America".

Christ is Born! Glorify Him!

Ung

I've read a lot of it. Very good stuff. I learned alot.

Was Father Serge's book requested by them as an outside observer?

Ed

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 178
S
Member
Member
S Offline
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 178
Once the RDL was unveiled at the clergy conventions, a group of concerned clergy appealed to Fr. Serge and his expertise in liturgics to dismantle yet another version of our beloved Ruthenian Recension.

I've been told that since the RDL was done in secret, it only added to the trouble because the clergy felt they had no voice with their own Bishops. Fr. Serge gave the clergy a voice -- albeit a voice the Bishops were not willing to listen to. Not then, not today, not ever, at least where this revision stands.

If I have this incorrect, I hope a member of the clergy will step-up and correct me.


Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 299
M
Member
Member
M Offline
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 299
If you were close I would buy you a drink! smile Maybe I should write the bishop and tell him he was insensitive to bad typists when he wrote the new liturgy!

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 1
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,134
Likes: 1
I'm still waiting for Fr. David to explain why inclusive language was needed. Are the Orthodox wrong for not using it? confused

I hope not.

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 730
E
Member
Member
E Offline
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 730
Originally Posted by Etnick
I'm still waiting for Fr. David to explain why inclusive language was needed. Are the Orthodox wrong for not using it? confused

I hope not.

It ain't gonna happen. If it really was about theology then the good Father would have answered my question from almost a year ago about using *childrern* instead of *sons* of God in the Beatitudes.

I would suggest that your church ask the Orthodox to be that *outside* observer.

Any critical study would have to include the silent movers in this. Like anything off-kilt, one has to investigate the prime movers of these changes. It lies deeper that mere word changes to be more upbeat. Someone is behind it and that someone has not made himself (or herself) known. These changes, especially the adulterationi of Scripture of the sake of ???, are being pushed from elsewhere and those who did the deeds are not talking. Until the prime movers are identified and challenged, you will continue to pull hair out. There will be no answers because there ares none.

Ed

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Likes: 1
F
Member
Member
F Offline
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,564
Likes: 1
Glad to know that my book is appreciated; thank you! A small clarification:

It is correct that several specific clergy (and faithful) of the Pittsburgh Metropolia appealed to me to write the book. However, this was not any organized "group of clergy" - and indeed could not have been, since no such fellowship seems to be permitted to exist.

The response to the book at least demonstrates one important point: it is false to assume that lay people don't care, or are not seriously interested, in liturgical matters. First those who produced the Novus Ordo produced and imposed their contrived liturgy on the Latin Church, basing themselves on this fallacious assumption; now the same thing, mutatis mutandis, has been done to the US Ruthenians. How many more such episodes must we live through before the bureaucrats realize that priests, deacons, and faithful are not to be treated like mushrooms?

Fr. Serge

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,688
Moderator
Member
Moderator
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,688
Fr Serge-

who are these bureaucrats?

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,226
Member
Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,226
Originally Posted by EdHash
I would suggest that your church ask the Orthodox to be that *outside* observer.
I do not think they would be pleased with the Orthodox evaluation of the RDL. frown


Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 491
P
PrJ Offline
Member
Member
P Offline
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 491
Originally Posted by Recluse
Originally Posted by EdHash
I would suggest that your church ask the Orthodox to be that *outside* observer.
I do not think they would be pleased with the Orthodox evaluation of the RDL. frown

Perhaps you should read this first before you make this "guess" -- http://www.patronagechurch.com/HTML/liturgical_practices.htm

You will see that many (if not most) of Fr Schmemman's suggestions are included in the Ruthenian DL. For example, Schmemann argues that it may be profitable to eliminate the two little litanies after the Great Litany so that the priest can pray the corporate prayer aloud. This the DL does. Etc.

Among the many excellent authorities assembled by Fr Schmemman is the quote from Archbishop Philaret of Chernigov (1864):

For such people the order of worship with which they
are familiar is the original and unchanging order. Why?
Because they wholly ignore the history of Church life
and, obsessed with themselves, cherish only that which
they know. History clearly shows that in liturgical matters
the Church dealt with reasonable freedom: she adopted
new forms when she saw that the old arrangements were
not altogether useful and there was need for a change....
Here, as in other matters, she neither accepted the rule of
those who, according to apostolic institutions, are to be
disciples and not teachers, nor did she allow herself to go
into deep sleeping but paid great attention to the needs of
the time and the demands of souls. ...


I also love these insights:

Quote
Not everything that has been done for a hundred years and to which people are accustomed is necessarily correct in the light of the true liturgical tradition of Orthodoxy, and something which seems "new" and even "revolutionary' may very well be a much needed return to genuine tradition.

Quote
I would like to add here that in all liturgical discussions the constant and popular reference to uniformity as a decisive argument is both useless and harmful. Perfect liturgical uniformity has never existed in the Church, even as an ideal, for the Church has never considered it to be the condition and expression of her unity. Her liturgical unity was always that of a general structure or ordo, never that of details and applications. Even today the Orthodox Church does not have one single Typikon, and there exits a great variety in practices among Orthodox Churches. Such variety has existed also within the same national Church: thus in Russia, for example, there were differences between Moscow and Kiev, between different monastic traditions, etc. It is simply dangerous- spiritually and pastorally- to make our people believe that uniformity in all practices is the touchstone and essence of Orthodoxy; dangerous because they already seem to have an unhealthy obsession with the externals at the expense of meaning.

Last edited by PrJ; 01/15/08 09:02 AM.
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,373
U
Member
Member
U Offline
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,373
By all means, let's make an artificial barrier and become different from our other brethren using the Ruthenian Recension.
Didn't some quote Bishop Andrew Pataki saying we need our liturgy to be deliberately different from our Orthodox brthren?

Yes, let's dare to be different!

Ung

Page 6 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2024 (Forum 1998-2024). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0