www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Catholics and Anglicans reach accord on Mary, the Theotokos

Dear Amado,

So it is largely than a lot of EC Churches!

And the Anglican Provinces of Africa and Asia will indeed be watching closely . . .

Alex

Dare anyone call it heretical? God forbid such a thing, dont you know in this post christian modern world there is no longer any absolute standard of truth? What is wrong with you?
Stephanos I

As Orthodox Catholic puts it very well, God forbid we should think of that! For the record, Fr. Anthony, may I ask what you think of this prayer in an Orthodox site:

Rejoice Mary, Mother of God, Virgin, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, for thou hast borne the Savior of our souls. Meet it is in truth, to glorify thee, O Birth-giver of God, ever blessed, and all undefiled, the Mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, thou who without stain didst bear God the word, true Birth-giver of God, we magnify thee.

Now I highlighted that part, as it perfectly fits Catholic teachings of Mary as conceived without sin, and indeed the prayer seems to be a confession of Mary's sinlessness. The prayer, for veracity, can be seen here: http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/prayers/panagia.html

The third prayer likewise indicates this Catholic view found in Orthodoxy:

O virgin, spotless, undefiled, unstained, all-chaste and Pure Lady, Bride of God, who by the glorious birth-giving hast united God the Word with Man and linked our fallen nature with Heavenly Things...

and contrasts her in fact to sinful man:

despise me not, who am defiled and sinful...

Now if such prayers are not tacit admissions to the Catholic belief of Mary as sinless, then I don't know what is.

That phrase has been translated in numerous ways into English. Essentially, it means "without loss of virginity, you bore God the Word."

Dave

Just to clarify Amado's post. Their bishop (whose name escapes me at the moment) is a former RC, but not a former RC bishop; he was a RC priest, as I recollect.

Many years,

Neil

I would agree with Dave on the meaning of the particular phrase that Milliardo quotes.

Many years,

Neil

All,

As to the sub-topic of an Anglican group seeking full communion with the Vatican, that was being discussed on another thread here;

Anglican Rite Creation, A Possibility

The leader of this "Traditional Anglican Communion" is Archbishop John Hepworth. He is an Australian and former Roman Catholic priest.

The TAC (as it is often abbreviated) has "branches" in the America's, Asia, Europe and Africa. They have between 400,000-500,000 members worldwide. They have been in talks with Rome for over a decade now.

Here in the US, the Anglican Church IN America is the TAC affiliate. In Canada it is the Anglican Catholic Church of Canada.

The TAC allows a married priesthood, and if I'm not mistaken allows for the office of deaconess.

Anglicanism is akin to Eastern Orthodoxy, in the sense that Anglicans define themselves by a certain "Anglican ethos" just as Orthodox members have their own unique ethos.

We should all pray for the reunification of these Anglicans to the See of Peter.

ProCatholico

Thanks, Neil, for the correction! And that's what I wanted to convey: "ex-RC priest" now Anglican Archbishop Hepworth as correctly identified by ProCatholico.

PproCatholico, please keep us updated on this as you were into it many times before!

Amado

Dear Chtec and Neil,

Actually, I've seen much more overt references to the All-Holiness of the Theotokos translated into English by Orthodox, usually converts, who bend over backwards, it would seem, to disconnect the Mother of God from the term "Immaculate."

If someone can show me definitively how one arrives at that English translation objectively, then I'll believe it.

Alex

Ditto for me as well. I think the third prayer I quoted would have been hard for Orthodoxy to explain without emptying the prayer of its meaning.

Dear Milliardo,

If I can be shown to be wrong, I will submit to what is right!

But that has yet to be seen . . . Do you think that Chtec and Neil are up to the job?

Anyway, I'm still smarting from a run-in with an Orthodox convert in another context . . .

I would have eaten the fellow alive without salt - but such converts just don't sit well with my stomach . . .

Alex

Dear Friends,

I fear I have an apology to make to Chtec and Neil!

The phrase in the above prayer IS indeed a reference to the Mother of God bearing Christ without loss of her Virginity . . .

And this is how it is contained in the original Slavonic and Ukrainian etc.

However, my point was (and I think still remains valid) that there have been direct references to the All-Holiness of the Theotokos that have sometimes been (perhaps deliberately) mistranslated into English so as to avoid the issue of appearing to be in agreement with the West's Immaculate Conception etc.

But even in the prayer that Milliardo quotes, "Axion Estin" there is reference made to the "All Blessed and Most Immaculate" Mother of our God.

Alex

Amado and All,

Rest assured that I will keep you all updated on the latest developments between the TAC and Rome. Recently however, (on May 1st) Archbishop Hepworth, in a media release, stated;

Therefore, when the time is right, the TAC will make an announcement and I will be sure to let everyone know

ProCatholico

Dear ProCatholico,

It is good that the bishop is "TAC-full!"

Alex