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I was watching the other videos of Romanian Orthodox elders denouncing Ecumenism and Catholicism and I was shocked by the utter prejudice and ignorance of their statements. It is one thing to vehemently disagree with Catholic teaching; it is another thing to attribute the wildest and most hateful slanders to Catholics.

One video, that of a certain Elder Arsenie Papacioc, was simply unbearable. He actually stated that Catholics introduced the axiom that the end justifies the means and that we Catholics believe in committing all sorts of atrocities and violence towards non-Catholics. He also said that Pope John Paul II came to Romania in order to conquer and to dominate.

I have said it before and I will say it again: the reason why I can never, ever even contemplate becoming Orthodox, is the sheer hatred and lack of charity that Orthodox monks show to Catholics. If to be "illumined" in an Orthodox monastery means wallowing in ignorance and entertaining all sorts of fantasies against the Catholics, I'm sorry, but that illumination is no illumination at all but a surrender to darkness. I have no problem with Orthodox monks disagreeing with Catholic teaching: if it were simply a matter of disagreeing over doctrine, then I'd even admire the Orthodox for their strightforwardness and integrity. As it is, this disagreement always goes hand in hand with slandering Catholics. It almost seems like a sport for Orthodox monks, whether in Romania, Russia or Athos: whoever slanders Catholics the most is the most Orthodox of all!

Let the Orthodox here prove me wrong!!!

I just can't reconcile the long and beautiful services of Orthodox monasteries with the sheer lack of charity.

I can't either.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that It almost seems like a sport for Orthodox monks, whether in Romania, Russia or Athos: whoever slanders Catholics the most is the most Orthodox of all! That is because, happily, I have met equitable and charitable Orthodox monks. But, I agree that there is a lot of anti-Catholic bigotry among some Orthodox and that I am sorry for. It is neither silence nor stillness nor justice.

-- John

Asianpilgrim, I wonder looking to the word 'hatred'. It happens that Father Arsenie Papacioc is a man of love, a true monk, a true servant of Christ. I have no idea what you saw, but it must live here and listen to the whole context, thoughts, ideas.


Hatred, darkness...interesting.

I wanted to underline that despite certain shown openings, as the visit of Father John Paul II here et al., I think that the Orthodox Church is reluctant to the ecumenism. Perhaps we should underline the ecumenical vocations of our Churches.

I wrote in this thread seeing about Ravenna Statement and despite the opening, even of the actual Patriarch, the Romania Orthodox Church stated that 'The Pope was first inter Patriarchs, that time when he was Orthodox.'

I want only to know more, to meditate. Why this happens? Why that Father said that? Whay that Cardinal said that? And so on. Why-s. But above all is Christ.

M+

I am also sorry for that.

I have said this before: some of these types of Orthodox faithful should feel confident enough to concentrate on what is beautiful about their own Orthodox faith RATHER than obsessing about what is wrong with the Catholic faith.

But, alas, we live in a fallen world where self love is a hidden demon/idol whose trap we all fall into in one form or another.

May our Lord God have mercy on us and on the whole world!

In Christ,
Alice

I have no doubt that he is an ascetic monk and, in his conscience, a true servant of Christ. Whether he has charity is another matter.

You should be what you are because you believe what your church teaches.

And there are those who hate each other in both Orthodox and Catholic Churches.

AMM is more than correct. If I established my ecclesial allegiance based on people's manners, after what I've gone through with my in-laws in their current parish, I would have become a member of HOCNA a long time ago.

Alex

Yes, it is true that we must not easily judge a church on the basis of what its members do. If that were the case, no Church would stand a chance. Even Jesus had a Judas by his side.

What gets me, though, is this: these bigoted monks spout so much ignorance and bile against Catholics -- and are revered by many precisely because of this "orthodoxy". We Catholics may have bad eggs on our sides, but we don't pretend that they are spiritual wise men. It is true that some Catholics hate the Orthodox simply because they are Orthodox; what I can tell you is that, if these Catholics ever dare express their hatred, the Orthodox need not worry: other Catholics will deal them a stinging lesson in respect for a sister Church. I myself have done so more than once.

But when an Orthodox Elder sttacks Catholics like this -- not on the basis of doctrine, not on the basis of theology, but on the basis of pure slander -- tell me, what does "Holy Orthodoxy" do? Now I understand why some speak of "Elder Worship" in Orthodoxy. Elders simply don't do wrong! They are full of the Holy Spirit! For all the slanders and vitriol that has come out of Mount Athos against Rome, has any hierarch or figure of the Orthodox Church ever stepped out to denounce or put a stop to the wave of slander? Do the Orthodox even realize that without the personal help of the "conqueror" John Paul II and of "nefarious and deceitful papist" groups such as "Aid to the Church in Need", Orthodoxy would not have been able to rise up from the ruins of Communist oppression?

I agree that this lack of charity of itself is not a decisive argument against Orthodoxy. But it sure is a strong indicator. "By their fruits thou shalt know them." If not even eight hours of prayer every day can cure this bile, something is terribly wrong.

Dear Brother,

Yes, absolutely.

But we love them, even when it causes us some hurt to do so or when we feel that our own ecumenical extended hand to them is rejected - what else can we do?

And there are things to admire about them, their dedication to their strong principles (don't see too much of that among Catholics in general these days) and their deep convictions.

My grandfather was an EC priest in Ukraine and was put under arrest when the Soviets invaded Galicia in 1945. They told him he had two choices, to become Orthodox or else to join his friends in a Siberian outpost.

He conferred with Irene, his wife, and decided that he would become Orthodox. He continued to be in his old parish and he even built a new church that was consecrated by a Russian Orthodox Bishop who awarded him the jewelled pectoral Cross for his effort.

Although he felt remorse about what he did, and later, when he arrived in Canada, returned to the UGCC, I noticed that he developed a great admiration for the Orthodox Church, for her Saints (and in those days, EC's and RC's would actually ridicule the very idea that Orthodoxy could produce saints! Lord have mercy on us!) and the like.

It was to him that I owe my "rebirth" to Eastern Christianity.

I once said to a ROCOR priest that we will be united "in God's way not ours."

He really liked that and agreed. He even mentioned that an EC had said that in his next Sunday sermon.

It is also like the Irish Catholic priest who was at a party where a nasty Presbyterian was telling everyone how "evil" Irish Catholics were.

He listened in silence and then simply told the man, "Quite right - they're a bad lot!"

The Rev. Fr Archimandrite Sergios Keleher, when he was in Toronto, once told me about an RC friend of his who had an icon of the Pillars of Orthodoxy hanging in his home.

He explained to Father that the icon was a reminder to him that there are people who are even more committed to their religious beliefs than he was . . .

Cheers,

Alex

Isn't it a general argument against religion that people dedicated to principles of love manifest their faith in actions of hate? I don't see that exactly as an Orthodox problem, though certainly it is present in Orthodoxy. I have unfortunately seen being a monk does not make on holy, or preclude developing a world view that many (including people in the same church) would describe as insular, xenophobic or paranoid - towards all manner of outside groups.

I agree, by your fruits shall you be known, but that applies to all of us. In my parish I see respect to others, something exhibited by our Metropolitan as well. I try to follow their example.

Knocking the door, praying, talking, dialogging, asking.

In that video there were focused questions. I know these Fathers in an entire context. It is not about hatred, it is just different. The communism was a plague over millions of souls, but there was an underground.

In Romania, despite the severiy of that madness, there were many baptisms, goings to Church, Divine Liturgy. Pilgrimages to monasteries and so on.

After 1989, the Orthodox believers helped and there were built over 1000 Churches and monasteries, sketes, there were printed thousands of books, of the Holy Fathers et al. The Orthodoxy was not in ruins here.

Father Arsenie said he would be against the ecumenism, not the Romano-Catholic Church. Ecumenism is not from the 7 Synods. It is a movement of our times, which can be refined.

Father Staniloae and many others expressed sadness about moral matters: women priests, abnormalities, and so on.

Here many did not know all the aberrant matters from Western world.

Against all that communism (many went to Siberia or jails, but that madness opressed in more deep pervert ways) faith should be defended.

Father Arsenie was in the front of an execution military group, Father Staniloae was in jail, Father Cleopa stayed hidden in mountains (being a light from there), until he was asked to go to Bucharest as an obedient monk. He went and he re built monastic communities at Putna, Slatina, Sihastria etc.

And so many others.

Here the people go often to monasteries for confessing, asking useful word for their lives et al.

Shall we look back in history and accuse? The politics interfered, the caesars of their time put their nose in spiritual matters and many turmoils sprang.

These Elders underline often that Christ is important, not their word. Many are rough, may are gentle, millions of souls, according to every one's temperament listen to them.

But many people do not go to Church. Yes, the Churches are FULL during the Sunday Divine Liturgy or at great feasts, and not only, at vespers and so on. But many are not there. Never. And they wander in the kingdom of the shadows.

Actions and reactions. We should take more in consideration every voice. The Orthodox Church, the Romano-Catholic Church rather focus on the nowadays deviations, on family, life. Not allowing to listen to the politicians or to the materialism.

I honestly think that the Orthdoxy will never accept matters as papacy, filioque etc. Rather we focus on matters that affect a lot of people. As those Fathers said more about morals.

I was in Italy, the most of the Churches (at least in Roma) are empty or with Japanese inside taking images.

Consumerism, lust etc destroy souls right now. As Father said about relativization of faith. For this he was cautious and sad.

Instead being acused, without true knowledge, all these voices can be studied, asked, invited etc.

Regarding me I enjoy to enter often the local RC Church, light candles, attend sometimes the Holy Mass or talking sometimes to the Father priest.

God have mercy!

M+

Dear AMM,

You raise an interesting issue!

I agree with you and would also add that it is BECAUSE people take their faith seriously and very seriously that they can express their commitment in violent ways.

Even the great St Nicholas of Myra punched out the arch-heretic Arius since he felt that a conciliar condemnation wasn't sufficient punishment for the rascal . . .

Ho-ho-ho - HOLD the heretic while I take a swing at him . . .

And atheists and agnostics, those who believe people will eventually "get over" religion also aren't happy about the lengths to which people will get violent to defend or promote their beliefs. It gives those beliefs a "reality" they refuse to give them.

Alex

Dear Marian,

Trieste Romania!

Yes, you are right - just because someone is against ecumenism does not mean he or she is against any particular Church.

One thing that I believe most Orthodox do not appreciate about Eastern Catholics is that there are EC's who have as much of an aversion against the West and Roman Catholicism as do some Orthodox - and this despite the fact that EC's are with Rome etc.

I grew up being taught just such an aversion when it came to maintaining Eastern traditions and the "ever-present" threat of Latinization.

"Latinization" as I was taught about it appeared to me to be something like an illness, like the flu.

You never ever quite knew if you "caught it," it was always contagious and you stayed away from Latins and those EC's who "had caught it."

And if you should catch it yourself, you would know it by a desire to change to the Gregorian calendar, being too lazy to use three fingers to make the Sign of the Cross (or else making it just once and not three times), etc.

All bad signs!

And you avoided overt contact with the "Latinization bug" by running away whenever you passed by a building where you heard Gregorian Chant.

This did not prevent us from visiting Latin shrines or practicing Latin devotions (they were always "Easternized" and so became "ours" in the end . . . ). So we had "our Stations of the Cross" and "our Brown Scapular" etc.

And whenever Father in the pulpit said something like, "And the Latins . . ."

At that point, we all had our backs up against the wall and shuddered. What if when Father was through talking about the Latins some of us liked what he said about them or their practices? What then? A tragedy waiting to happen . . .

Alex

That is not the point. Being anti-ecumenical is one thing, and is perfectly compatible with charity. But slander of the kind that Elder Arsenie preached, and which too many Elders spread? Not even "anti-ecumenism" need be accompanied by slander.

"Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

We should pray for the Elder because he probably does not know that he is spreading slander.

In fact, he probably believes that he is telling the truth because schism and heresy are deadly. These teachings against schism can be found in the writings of the Church Fathers.

When I first started attending the Melkite Catholic Church in Los Angeles, my confessor in the Latin Church said that I was in heresy and in schism for doing so. He said that the Melkite Church was not under the Pope but under the Greek Patriarch and had lost the faith. This was in the year 1993.

In addition, the pastor of St. Charles Borromeo Church in North Hollywood told his parishioners that the Melkite Church down the street, St. Anne's Melkite Catholic Church was in schism and in heresy and forbade his parishioners from attending it. This was announced from the pulpit and printed in the bulletin.

Is that not slander?

Furthermore, that same pastor made a chrismated Melkite Catholic undergo reception of Confirmation and First Holy Communion at Pascha services at St. Charles in 1994.

Then there was the true story of the Ruthenians who came to Los Angeles before St. Mary's was established. They went to a Roman Catholic Church and the priest told them that they were Orthodox but if they wanted to become Roman Catholics, they would need to undergo catechism classes and be confirmed (again). They were instructed to go to the local Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Priest told them that they were indeed Catholics and would need to undergo catechism classes and be chrismated into Orthodoxy. So, they took lessons and were chrismated into the Orthodox Christian Church as they did not want to attend Latin services and felt more at home with the Orthodox Divine Liturgy.