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Some interesting comments in the interview posted with Metropolitan Filaret. Particularly

I agree with the contention of interview that the crux of the issue is primacy. I�m hopeful that some way will be found to gracefully back infallibility out of the picture. Otherwise I think things will just continue to go in circles.

Andrew

Primacy need not even be discussed at this juncture, save only in clarification of the pathos of Latin reflections on it since Vatican II. What is most important is seeing a common observance and way of thinking arise, in the sense of lex orendi and, yes, a return to Patristic understandings of theology and ecclesiology. Unripe frameworks without substance are only empty and serve only to divide Orthodox...

Kollyvas-

Turing to your posts, as a Catholic I think I more or less agree with you.

What precisely does this mean? I'm no expert, but it seems that patristic renewal has been a theological movement in both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches. I'm fine with this, as long as we don't presuppose that one Church or the other is more patristic than the other and the less patristic one should be more like hte more patristic one. There have been many necessary changes since the days of the Fathers; while we should be especially alert to their perspective we should not make broad changes because of what we view to be "patristic".

How is this a problem, unless you believe in the "one bishop one territory one Church" model? Besides, while I'm not up on the ecclesiological opinions of each individual Church, I've read on this forum that the Melkite Patriachate will rejoin the Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch upon reunion. Patriarch Lubomyr of Kyiv has also gone on the record saying that his hope is for a united Byzantine-rite Kyivan Church in union with Rome, Moscow and Constantinople.

And moving towards the meat of your post:
Question for everyone: the Eastern Catholic Churches are already sui juris Churches. Does this "sui juris" translate into "autocephalous"?

And as far as for Kollyvas' remarks, isn't he basically asking the Eastern Catholic Churches to stand up for themselves and really be "sui juris Churches in communion with Rome?" Isn't then what he's proposing not much different from the Melkites' position?

Kollyvas,

There is no implication of any plot against you as you are accusing other posters of.

You are though to moderate your tone that you are writing in and posting to on this forum or not post. This is a warning.

Father Anthony+
Moderator

Bless Father.
Respectfully, if my tone on this thread was inappropriate, I am unaware. Moreover, I will defend myself. The provocation was clear and others saw it. I clarified my statements and went to great pains to say what I said bearing no malice and indeed what I said was offered irenically. Now, it's clear others wanted to seize on something to start a fight. It would be appreciated very much if you bear in mind that I have sensibilities as well. Thank you.

Kollyvas,

I will not tolerate under any circumstance any poster yelling (Using all caps) or making accusations against any poster without collaboration. If a reply can not be made in a civil and charitable fashion that is becoming a Christian it is not to be made at all.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Moderator

Bless Father.

It was clear that others became fixated on my somehow "being offensive" by using the terminology "Eastern Rite communities" and when I offered explantation, they maintained that I was still slighting them. Moreover, their tone was less than irenic. That is clearly viewable here. Substantiation is there. As far as my use of caps, it's emphatic, not shouting ,and that can be seen by examing what was written and it's context. Father, if you don't like me and my Orthodox opinions, say so, even tell me to go elsewhere, but, please, don't try and tell me black is white or that I am to submit my conscience to others standards of political correctness or my Faith and education to others lack of charity. That is unacceptible. No one should be the object of abuse. You're out of line.

Kollyvas,

I hold to my warning and that is it. If you can not follow the manner prescribed in the warning, you more than welcome to take your posts elsewhere. I in no way have made any accusation regarding your position or line, but rather the manner in which you address others. I do find your tone to be unacceptable to other posters though.

I do resent your accusation towards myself. For a relatively new poster, I have had a record number of moderator alerts regarding your posts regarding your tone and manner of addressing others.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Moderator

Bless Father.

As I have clearly illustrated, another agenda was at work and you are serving its ends. It's my opinions not my tone and the fact that I can articulate them that is the problem. I WILL NOT BE SILENCED.

Kollyvas,

Father Anthony is correct. It is not your opinions that are objectionable (some of them in this thread are quite reasonable). It is the way in which you present them. When you enter another�s house as an invited guest do you then walk through the house being as obnoxious as possible? That is what you have done here and elsewhere on the Forum.

Did you use the term �Eastern Riters� on purpose to bait people into controversy? You should know by now that such terminology ended with Vatican II and that the correct terminology is �Eastern Catholic�. Why would you be so polemic and continue to use terminology that people have abandoned, especially when your use of that terminology will be seen as offensive? And especially after several people offered you very good explanations of why using correct terminology is important? Did you really think that noting that you meant no offense and then continuing to use the term was acceptable and charitable? Did you really think that all the people who were offended were out to get you and that you were the misjudged innocent?

You have a posting style that is harsh, baiting and judgmental. Even though some of your opinions are very good, they are uncharitable to an intolerable level. You are not providing a good witness of Orthodoxy.

You have earned yourself a timeout (or possible permanent suspension). I suggest that you find a trusted friend and show your posts to him. Perhaps he can help you understand the lack of charity in your posts and help you to find a less offensive posting style.

Please contact me privately (via e-mail) if you wish to discuss this issue further.

Admin

I still think primacy is the key to the discussions. That�s just me. On some other points mentioned.

Overall, I would not look for major changes on either side in terms of praxis or phronema. I just don�t think it will happen, or necessarily should happen. Both churches have their own histories, identities and so on. My experience on both sides is they are very different in almost every way, and not likely to change.

I also don�t see reconciliation as some sort of grand reunion, nor would there or should there be a drive for structural unity. I think an agreement on primacy would allow a framework for the bishops on both sides to meet and agree when there are concerns that affect both. Otherwise I think both sides should essentially govern and worry about themselves.

I doubt if a significant change in the status of the Eastern Catholics is likely to sway the Orthodox one way or the other (and for some reason it seems Rome likes to approach the Orthodox directly). Right now as best I can tell they are in something of a hybrid status, and I don�t see why they would necessarily need to change as part of a process of reconciliation. I would think it�s really up to them in terms of what they want to do.

Andrew

The planners (10 Catholic and 11 Orthodox) for the resumption of the joint theological commission dialogues met today with His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI, who reiterated his predecessor's commitment to ecumenism and expressed his desire for the members to "do everything possible to re-establish full communion."

It was revealed that the Commission will have 60 members, with the 15 leading Orthodox Churches contributing 2 representatives each, 15 representatives of the Catholic Church, and the remaining 15 slotted for "consultors" (?)or "auditors" (?).

Full story by CWNews [cwnews.com]

Amado

i also have word that the serbian orthodox church is supposed to be hosting this event as well as moscow is supposed to be sending a reprentative. hopefully the moscow representative will be a good sport

Mateusz,

All things are possible with prayer. We just got to be the ones doing it and promoting it.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

amen to that. may this meeting produce good fruit for many years to come