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Dear IF,

Khrystos Khreschayetsia! Vo Yordani!

Yes, I did my Master's thesis on this very history.

OUN-B was committed to the uncompromising struggle against their enemies (for which position its leadership was persecuted by the OUN-M, even to the point of pronouncing a death sentence against Stepan Bandera). One may be of the OUN and still be a monarchist/Hetmanite since the latter is simply about a form of government (constitutional monarchy).

By the way, I once made mention of the observed fact that whenever I met generals et al. from Ukraine, I was always asked if I had any literature about S. Bandera to give them. They wanted to know what he did to make the Russians hate him so.

I was never asked about Melnyk. When I stated this, I was villified later as having brought my own bias into what was supposed to be a non-political event. When I told this to a number of people from Ukraine, they laughed and said that, for them, Bandera is a national hero. They did not regard the other fellow as such.

In short, don't get me started! smile

Slava Ukrayini! (Using that phrase used to mark you out as a Banderite, according to the UNF. Not so and not any more since so many Ukrainians from Ukraine now use it).

Alex




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Alex,

There are those who believe that over time President Yuschenko himself will be a declared a Saint by both the Roman Catholic and Ukrainian Orthodox Church for his efforts to end the millennium old schism between the two 'great branches' of Christianity; the Orthodox and the Latin Rite Roman Catholic Churches. Due to his many beliefs, including a unified Orthodox church in full communion with Rome and Constantinople, President Yuschenko was poisoned and for a time was near death. He has suffered a great deal and may still in fact not live a full life, but nonetheless he continues to advocate a Unified Ukrainian Orthodox Church in full communion with Constantinople and Rome - as it was in the time of Saint Volodymyr the Great (988). In fact he uses the term "Orthodox-catholic Church" (note: the lower case 'c' in catholic) when speaking of the future of Orthodoxy in Ukraine. No he isn�t a monk, or priest, or bishop, but his peaceful and courageous efforts in ending the millennium old schism have not gone unnoticed by both branches of the Christian Church. And who is to say that his brother will not show the piety, faith, and courage the world needs to end this millennium old mess.

Who knows maybe Stepan Bandera's grandson will become a monk in the UGCC. After all his great grandparents and many generations of his family were priests in the UGCC. Ask him next time he is in Toronto.

I.F.

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All,

The forum administration believes that I have introduced politics into the church news thread which is a violation the user rules. I'm not sure how else to interpret the news other than using a historical perspective. The context of my posts would be congruent with most University issued history books - including that of Paul Magosci of the University of Toronto.

If I have offended anyone, I'm truly sorry for this was not my intent. I'm also voluntarily withdrawing from this forum for 30 at least days to re-evaluate my objectives.

Khrystos Khreschayetsia! Vo Yordani!

I.F.

Last edited by Jean Francois; 01/22/08 01:51 PM.
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Dear IF,

Well, if he's canonized, he could be the patron "Hopeless Causes!" smile

President Yuschenko, however, simply wants a unified and autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church and he's really not into talks with Rome etc.

He has no problem with the UGCC remaining as it is. The whole notion, as well, of such a unified church being in communion with both Rome and Constantinople comes, in the first instance, from our Patriarch Lubomyr - and it is, in short, idealistic, unworkable and fantastical, as Rome's bureaucrats would be among the first to acknowledge.

The mess of the Ukrainian Orthodox situation is one that was not begun in 1054. Not at all. It began at the Union of Brest and then with all the various Orthodox factions, canonical and non-canonical, that followed in the 20th century.

Let's put it this way - there is no doctrinal difference between the various Ukrainian Orthodox factions other than jurisdictional - and they couldn't agree on a single leader/patriarch if their very lives depended on it. They prefer to live in their separate jurisdictions as they always have (sadly).

The UGCC has its own history of battling its own Orthodox brothers and sisters since the 16th century. The literature of that period, while "vibrant in the development of the Ukrainian language and literary heritage," shows to what extent Ukrainian was pitted against Ukrainian (to the utter joy of their external national enemies).

But would the UGCC join a unified, autocephalous Orthodox Patriarchate of Kyiv? And why not?

In fact, Rome would NEVER accept union with such a Church/Patriarchate for the same reasons Rome won't recognize a UGCC patriarchate - you know the reasons.

Doubt very much the grandson's monastic vocation. The kind of priest his grandfather was is in short supply in our Church nowadays. And who will lead the UGCC after Pat. Lubomyr? Hopefully, someone of similar calibre. But something tells me - not.

Alex



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Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Despite the canonical issues and Moscow's pathetic arguments against Ukrainian Orthodox autocephaly, things are moving forward there and it won't be long before a canonical Orthodox Patriarchate in Kyiv will be a reality.

For this, we pray to the Lord!

Alex

And if that happens, will many in the UGCC switch over to it? From what I know, Cardinal Husar and some UGCC hierarchs have made it clear that what they seek above all else is the creation of a unified Ukrainian Church.

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Dear asianpilgrim,

Yes, they do - but from a Catholic perspective that will be unacceptable to the Orthodox.

I support my Patriarch, but do think that the UGCC shouldn't come up with unworkable schemes for church unity that will wind up going nowhere.

We won't be taken seriously by others if we continue to do that.

Alex

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