www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy The term "Orthodox"

Dear Friends,

Just felt I had to ask this question:

In Slavonic, the Orthodox use the term "KaFOlik" and "KaFolicheskaya" for "Catholic."

But when referring to RC's, the Orthodox Russians use the term "KaTolik."

Can anyone comment on the one letter difference? There was a Russian Staretz who once asserted the only real difference between Catholics and Orthodox lay in "one letter."

Alex

Sometimes one letter can be a great difference; one iota separated the orthodox from the Arians.
FDRLB

In either Church-Slavonic or Russian, one may also say Kaftolicheskyi.

I suppose the difference lies in the distinction between a certain ecclesiology and a certain ecclesial structure!

Fr. Serge

Dear Alex,
I don�t know if this is the kind of comment you meant, but here is what I think has happened. In �KaFOlik�, which is taken directly from Greek, the theta in katholikos has become a Ф (as in Фёдор from Θεοδορος).
However, �KaTOlik� has probably been borrowed from Latin/Italian , where catholicus > cattolico.
So the two forms neatly separate the two meanings �universal� and �in communion with the See of Peter�. This sort of thing happens a lot in languages. It�s something like the way regal/royal in English is the same word twice, and something like the way flower/flour is division into two of a single word.

Regards.

Actually, I strongly suspect that "Katolik" is a calque from Polish.

Fr. Serge

Well, all I know is that to my public school friends in the PA coal region, this Polack went to "da katlick school". Maybe it's a calque of the Irish-English Coal Region dialect...

In some districts of the USA there were two sorts of people: "publics" and "Catholics". This referred, of course, to the schools which each attended.

Fr. Serge

This topic seems to have wandered from "Orthodox" to "Catholic". Hmmmm... if it starts moving towards "Protestant" or "Nondenominational" or some such direction we may have to close it!

C. I. X.

Admittedly language is not my strong suite so I am asking for a clarification. If we are talking transition of terms, orthodox from the Greek is true belief. But from the Slavonic does it not come out as true glory? Is that as in proper worship being we believe what we pray? So is not �catholic� a reference to the church while �orthodox� describes the faith? Then there is one, holy, catholic and apostolic church of the orthodox faith?

At least in the circles most of the Forum travel in, neither "Protestant" nor "Non-Denominational" are so emotionally charged as to provoke the same sort of anger that "Orthodox", "orthodox", and "Catholic" are apt to provoke. [There is also the word "catholic", which has no particular religious significance - if I should say that a gourmet friend has catholic taste in restaurants, I am not discussing his religious outlook, if any.]

This is not to say that on their own "home ground", so to speak, "Protestant" or "Non-Denominational" cannot provoke an argument - it's just to say that this Forum is not that home ground so we are not apt to get into a controversy over either of these terms.

Fr. Serge (who protests against many things, but is nevertheless not a Protestant, and supports catholic taste in foods, with the exception of those which he does not enjoy).

Personally, I've always seen соборный to mean catholic in Slavonic, in the sense that it's used in the Creed, where as Roman Catholics are referred to as католики.

FWIW.

John

My 2 cents... In some of the Ruthenian parishes I've visited (and in my own parish) they use Orthodox quite often in all the obvious places (i.e. where the green book states "true faith").

I don't know that I have ever heard "orthodox" or "orthodox Christians" publically in the BCC except from a couple of priests I can count on one hand who were assisting from the UGCC or Melkite churches. On the other hand I have never NOT used these terms serving in the UGCC, and both are the within the official translation according to our Synod.

Once when I was to serve at a BCC Pontifical DL the bishop in question specifically instructed me NOT to use either term. Neither terms are in the approved BCC translations of either the 1965 or the RDL Liturgikons.

Don't say the "o" word too loud, you might get a nasty-gram from the Bishop. One priest in the Eparchy of Parma received a letter telling him to stop using the word "orthodox" and use the phrase "true faith."

Is he still a Greek Catholic priest?