www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Conversion to Orthodoxy

Given the ecumenical atmosphere of the modern age, what is the Vatican's official position on someone who converts from Catholicism to Eastern Orthodoxy?

I do not know that there is an "official Vatican position" on such an occurence. But, I do know that Rome still holds and teaches, especially with the current Pontiff, that only in Catholicism can one find the "fullness of the Faith".

Dn. Robert

Catholic teaching has classically held that being Catholic and under the authority of the Supreme Pontiff is a necessary element of salvation. In that case, converting out of Catholicism would be an endangering of one's salvation.

Best,
Robser

A former spiritual father of mine taught me that if a person converts to another Church, that is a certain sign that the said convert is guilty of sexual sin. And I have read more than one tractate which said that a person cannot lose the Catholic faith unless he has committed mortal sin. Hence, a convert to another Church is by definition someone who has grievous sin in his soul. "The Lord will simply not allow a person in the state of grace to fall away from the Catholic Church."

I also once corresponded with a Byzantine Catholic abbot (can't say who he is, though, but I can say under oath that I'm not making this up) who told me that it would be exceptional for a Catholic who converts to Orthodoxy to thereby gain spiritual improvement.

Thus, negative sentiments about converts to Orthodoxy are not yet dead. Nevertheless, without in any way denying that the Catholic Church is the sole locus of the fullness of the Christian faith, I think that the general consensus among Catholics nowadays -- liberal or conservative -- is that a person who converts to another Church for genuine spiritual and theological reasons is not necessarily committing a sin and may even be eventually brought nearer to God because of it. This is especially true of those who convert to another Church that has valid sacraments and a venerable apostolic tradition behind it.

A simple reason in support of this more lenient view is that a mortal sin -- in order to be truly mortal -- involves "full knowledge" that one is indeed committing a grievous sin. It is simply illogical to suppose that a person who is leaving the Roman Catholic Church and entering, say, an Orthodox or schismatic Traditionalist Catholic church (not SSPX but SSPV, CMRI, etc.) for genuinely spiritual and / or theological reasons, could be doing so while fully conscious that he is committing a damnable sin against God. Obviously, he is converting because he wants to come closer to God! The convert may be objectively wrong, but surely the Lord will not punish with hellfire a fallible creature who committs a sincere and honest mistake out of love for Him.

There is, however, a weightier reason which makes me confident enough to state that a Catholic sincerely converting to Orthodoxy, while objectively in error, is not thereby cut off from grace and may in fact be still raised by God to the heights of sanctity through the ministrations of the Orthodox Church. This is the fact that, since 1904, the Russian Catholic Church has had the requisite papal permission (if not command) to venerate all the saints of the Russian Orthodox Church glorified prior to 1439, INCLUDING SOME WHO WERE CONVERTS FROM CATHOLICISM. Saints such as Procopius of Ustiug, Anthony the Roman, Nicephorus the Hesychast. The veneration of cradle Orthodox who loudly but sincerely condemned what they saw as Roman heresies is also allowed (say, St. Gregory Palamas). Of course, saints are not canonized only for particular communities, but for the whole Church. If Russian Catholics can regard these men as saints, then ALL Catholics may venerate them as such! Furthermore, lex orandi, lex credendi; and we Catholics believe that the charism of infallibility prevents the Pope from officially allowing the veneration as saints of people who are, in fact, sinners in hell. Therefore men such as the converts from Catholicism to Orthodoxy that I mentioned are doubtlessly in heaven, and MUST be venerated as saints.

Please see this thread:

https://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/274437#Post274437

I'd like to add that some prominent Catholic converts to Orthodoxy have continued to enjoy the friendship and esteem of Catholics. I am thinking of men such as ex-Cistercian and now Athonite monk Placide Deseille, who remains respected in Catholic spiritual circles; the late George Maloney SJ, whose conversion to Orthodoxy a year before his death did not prevent the Jesuits from claiming him as their own when he died; the late David Kirk (ex-Melkite, died in OCA) who was revered for his work in Emmaus House; the great Lev Gillet, who was never censured by his former master, Andrei Sheptytsky, for becoming Orthodox; Bishop Nathanael Popp of OCA, a former Romanian Catholic priest; and the many bishops of various independent Ukrainian Orthodox jurisdictions (including the late Kyivan Orthodox Patriarchs Dimitry and Volodomyr) who started life as Catholics.

Now, if only the Orthodox will reciprocate this generous Catholic view of those who leave Rome and swim the Bosphorus....

Don't forget "invincible ignorance". The Catholic Church has always been keen to observe that nuance: people who are sincerely unaware of the truth of Catholicism are not to be judged harshly. And who are we to assume that a man who, after much time spent in prayerfully investigating the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy chooses the latter, is in fact but maliciously blinding himself to the truth? I cannot in conscience think that men like Placide Deseille, Denis Guillaume, Lev Gillet, St. Gorazd, Maksym Sandovich, Alexis Kabaliuk etc. converted to Orthodoxy because they were men of hardened consciences, blinded to all truth.

How would we feel if the Orthodox were to suddenly state to our faces (as some of them do!) that all Orthodox converts to Catholicism are great sinners, deluded by the devil? Won't we tell them to at least respect the convictions of these converts? Now, why is it that we demand respect for those who convert TO Catholicism, while withholding the same respect from those who convert FROM Catholicism? This is plain and simple fairness and charity, not relativism.

Above all things, I love the truth. Much as I dislike certain aspects of Orthodoxy, much as I love Catholicism and wish to die in its bosom, I cannot tolerate impugning the character of those who convert to other Churches and faiths, if their conversion were motivated by truly religious concerns.

I should have said "This is a matter of plain and simple fairness and charity..."

I think the Church has said a lot lately about respecting the consciences of believers. (Especially trying to defend Christians who wish to live their faith in countries where Christianity is persecuted).

It is right always, to defend the conscience, and decisions made according to a person's conscience. I presume one becomes Orthodox, because your conscience demands it?

Nick

What a sad bit of reading this thread is.

I think the following post adequately answers your question:




-- John

Andrew, I think that it is a fair position for the Roman Catholic Church to take. If the Pope is indeed established by God as the vicar of Christ with supreme jurisdiction over every Church, then God's Catholic Church can only consist of those bishops in communion with the Pope. Breaking communion with the Pope is tantamount to leaving the Church. So I am not offended in the least that some Catholics believe that I have endangered my soul by leaving Catholicism. What else could they believe?

Of course I find the comment that people leaving Catholicism for Orthodoxy do so because of some grave, sexual sin to be absolutely absurd. It is a classic ad hominem. But if one is to be Catholic and take the papal claims seriously, then I don't see how one could not be saddened by the potential loss of salvation for those folks, such as myself, who broke communion with Rome to enter the Orthodox Church.

Joe

I think that many Catholics see the converts to Orthodoxy become more Orthodox than the Orthodox. The claims that all our Sacraments are invalid do not help.Also I have read many converts say we are protestant. Many people such as myself wonder how such things as birth control and invitro are suddenly OK. I do not mean to be argumenative or some type of a jerk. I also would tell any Catholic who tried to say the Orthodox are protestant that they were out of line. I have not seen the same type of venom from the Orthodox to Catholic side. (Yes they do exist)except from maybe James Likoudis.

It seems to me that the bottom line is this. Only one Church possesses the fulness of faith. The other Church may come close to possessing the fulness of faith but teaches at least one thing, if not more, that is not in harmony with the ancient Orthodox Catholic faith. The Catholic Church believes that it is the Church that teaches the fulness of faith. The Orthodox Church teaches that it has the fulness of faith. One side is right and the other wrong. Each individual must search his own conscience to find the truth of the matter and sincere, intelligent people will come to different conclusions. It makes good sense to say that if the Catholic Church (meaning the Church in union with Rome) has the fulness of faith, then to depart from that Church is to depart from the fulness of faith. The same can be said for the Orthodox side. If the Orthodox Church is the true Church of Christ, then to leave Orthodoxy for Catholicism is to leave the true Church.

Now only God can judge who is right and who is not and only God can judge who is saved and who is damned. So I respect my Catholic brethren who disagree with me and I am not at all offended that they believe that in my Orthodox faith there is something lacking that would make it the fulness of faith. If Catholics are concerned about ex-Catholics who become Orthodox, then it is hopefully out of love that they are so concerned. We should all be praying for the salvation of each one of us.

Joe

If you had truly wished to be non-argumentative, this generalized blanket statement would not have been inserted into your comments.

That was not my intention. It was an honest question.

But it is a question that doesn't seem to really address the topic of the thread.

Joe