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Dec 29th, 2019
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My original question was about the Catholic Church's official position on a conversion of a Catholic to Orthodoxy. The thread seems to have ventured into whether it is right or not. My understanding would not be that a Catholic endangers his/her salvation by converting to the Orthodox but rather they would be considered to be in 'formal schism' from the Catholic Church.
Secondly, the attitude of 'follow your conscience' has to be within the parameters of Christ's established Church (Catholic and Orthodox divisions). If it is applied further then one could say that a person who left Orthodoxy or Catholicism for a Protestant sect or a non-Christian religion would be justified in his/her actions. That is absolutely wrong. Only a defective conscience would lead one away for the established Church and this would definitely endanger one's salvation. As for the original post, I don't know what the official documents are in the Roman Catholic Church about your question. However, I would presume that a Catholic who joins the Orthodox Church (and vice versa) who be considered in schism: because the two churches are in schism with each other. -- John
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For the sake of argument, let us invert the question to what is the Orthodox Church's official position on a conversion of a member of Orthodoxy to Catholicism?
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Certain people in either church, Catholic or Orthodox, will regard people who leave as endangering their salvation. The main difference is one of faith / conscience. After that, the main point is charity.
Peace.
-- John
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John, you may be right. The answers above seem slanted in one direction. Time will tell.
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For the sake of argument, let us invert the question to what is the Orthodox Church's official position on a conversion of a member of Orthodoxy to Catholicism? I am not certain there could be said to be one position.
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Lets go with the point of view of the EP, that of the MP, and that of the Russian Church in Exile, though this is now probably in line with the the MP. I would ask people, if they choose to respond to the challenge, to put aside their personal views (especially if they are triumphalist), and simply state the facts.
Last edited by johnzonaras; 01/27/08 10:49 PM.
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Sisters and brothers in One Risen Lord Jesus Christ,
Please, do not argue too much and weak your souls. Who is Romano-Catholic, then must be a faithful Catholic, confess and partake the Holy Blood and Body of our Saviour, and live in Christ.
And who is Orthodox, then must live with all the soul in Christ, confess and partake. Living in Christ, living of every word. An Evangelic life.
Regarding the theological themes, I honestly think that only saint soul, a pure mind can speak of theology. Theology is about God. Wise would be to be with fear of God.
Theology is about living in God. Avva Evagrie said that a theologian is a person who prays truly. And who prays truly, then is theologian.
Catholic and Orthodox faith have much in common. Differs the style, the cultural patterns, but the core is the same.
Do you remember that existed a person named Arie? Arianism and so many other madnesses existed only in past? Then look well in our 'splendid' nowadays civilization.
Christ be testified in any place. Tear for tear, joy for joy, caring and thinking of the person who is in the front of us.
We are called to theosis. We are called to a precious place.
'I am with you until...' Do you believe the Lord's words? Christ is with us always. Is a simple thing this? Christ will look into our eyes, even if we want or not. Can we look into His eyes without fear?
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy upon us all, Orthodox, Catholic, Coptic, Chalcedonian, Melkite, Protestant, and on the entire world and kosmos in deep suffering! Amin!
M+
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Amen, my sister in Christ! True theology is experiential. St Seraphim of Sarov was a true theologian as he basked in the uncreated light when the snow was falling. Logic and reason can be our worst enemy. May we strive to let our minds rest in our hearts (nous), as we listen to that small, still voice. Peace and blessings to all!
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The official position (prior to Vatican II) would be viewed as an act of apostacy.
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The official position (prior to Vatican II) would be viewed as an act of apostacy. Can you summarize what was changed post Vatican II? I have found a document from 2006 called Actus Formalis Defectionis ab Ecclesia Catholica issued by the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts. The document seeks to clarify certain aspects of canon law about formal acts of defection. Alas, it's still as clear as mud to me....  http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/ciltformaldefect.HTM
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Pppe Pius XI, Mortalium Animos:
(#11.) Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.... Let them hear Lactantius crying out: "The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this the house of Faith, this the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. Let none delude himself with obstinate wrangling. For life and salvation are here concerned, which will be lost and entirely destroyed, unless their interests are carefully and assiduously kept in mind." Mortalium Animos retains its authority, but it must be seen in the context of the development of Catholic doctrine regarding other Churches or ecclesial communities. No encyclical is to be read in isolation from the history of doctrine before or after it. The passage of Mortalium that you cite, when read literally, implies that only Catholics go to heaven. Of course, when read in the context of doctrinal development, we learn that this is not the case, unless you want to be a Feeneyite. The Catholic Church has always made a distinction between those who deliberately and sinfully lead the Church on one hand, and those who are sincerely in "invincible" or "inculpable" ignorance of the truth of Catholicism. Not so, Mortalium Animos teaches that if people truly desire to be united to the Church, especially heretics and schismatics: "there is no doubt but that they will recognize the one true Church of Jesus Christ [/u]and will, at last, enter it." Humani Generis teaches that it is a "necessity" to belong to the true (Roman Catholic)Church in order to be saved. Mortalium Animos: (#13.) You, Venerable Brethren, understand how much this question is in Our mind, and We desire that Our children should also know, not only those who belong to the Catholic community, but also those who are separated from Us: if these latter humbly beg light from heaven, there is no doubt but that they will recognize the one true Church of Jesus Christ and will, at last, enter it, being united with us in perfect charity. Mystici Corporis Christi, Pope Pius XII (#22.) Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. "For in one spirit" says the Apostle, "were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free." [17] As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith. [18] And therefore if a man refuse to hear the Church let him be considered -- so the Lord commands -- as a heathen and a publican. [19] It follows that those are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit. Humani Generis, Pope Pius XII (#27.) Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the sources of revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.[6] Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation.
Last edited by podkarpatski; 01/28/08 08:41 PM.
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Pppe Pius XI, Mortalium Animos:
(#11.) Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.... Let them hear Lactantius crying out: "The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this the house of Faith, this the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. Let none delude himself with obstinate wrangling. For life and salvation are here concerned, which will be lost and entirely destroyed, unless their interests are carefully and assiduously kept in mind." Mortalium Animos retains its authority, but it must be seen in the context of the development of Catholic doctrine regarding other Churches or ecclesial communities. No encyclical is to be read in isolation from the history of doctrine before or after it. The passage of Mortalium that you cite, when read literally, implies that only Catholics go to heaven. Of course, when read in the context of doctrinal development, we learn that this is not the case, unless you want to be a Feeneyite. The Catholic Church has always made a distinction between those who deliberately and sinfully lead the Church on one hand, and those who are sincerely in "invincible" or "inculpable" ignorance of the truth of Catholicism. Not so, Mortalium Animos teaches that if people truly desire to be united to the Church, especially heretics and schismatics: "there is no doubt but that they will recognize the one true Church of Jesus Christ [/u]and will, at last, enter it." Humani Generis teaches that it is a "necessity" to belong to the true (Roman Catholic)Church in order to be saved. Mortalium Animos: (#13.) You, Venerable Brethren, understand how much this question is in Our mind, and We desire that Our children should also know, not only those who belong to the Catholic community, but also those who are separated from Us: if these latter humbly beg light from heaven, there is no doubt but that they will recognize the one true Church of Jesus Christ and will, at last, enter it, being united with us in perfect charity. Mystici Corporis Christi, Pope Pius XII (#22.) Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. "For in one spirit" says the Apostle, "were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free." [17] As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith. [18] And therefore if a man refuse to hear the Church let him be considered -- so the Lord commands -- as a heathen and a publican. [19] It follows that those are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit. Humani Generis, Pope Pius XII (#27.) Some say they are not bound by the doctrine, explained in Our Encyclical Letter of a few years ago, and based on the sources of revelation, which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing.[6] Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. It is precisely these kinds of teachings that convinced me that Rome has indeed contradicted herself numerous times on matters of doctrine. To me, "doctrinal development," seems to be more spin than reality. Joe
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Also, this proposition is condemned by the Syllabus of Errors 17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. -- Encyclical "Quanto conficiamur," Aug. 10, 1863, etc. http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm
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Joe,
Good hope is not entertained to those who are not in the True Church of Christ. Mercy is implored, an abundance of mercy.. not firm hope. The best one can say is that we do not know.
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