www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Assyrians Diocese elects for full communion

Dear all,

My reply on celibacy of the Bishops was purposely over-simplified. We know for example about the early developements. What I mean to say is that in the CotE it took a similar course.

And I did mean continence and not countenance. Silly mistype...

As for the councils issue, it was something that had been enacted in the council held by BarSauma. It seems that it was re-affirmed in several other councils, but in the council of Mar Aba I, the Catholicos did forbid the marriage of Bishops and Monks and went on to make it in force even to the present day.

This is still an over-simplified answer, but I hope it clears up any confusion I may have made.

Love,
Anthony

Dear all,

Sorry for the fragmented replies. I did a bit of looking into the issue of sharing in communion. Found something in the Catechism of the Catholic Church where it states:


In Christ,
Anthony

Dear Byzantophile,

Please forgive me for disagreeing with you!

But no, Muslims believe Jesus is A prophet but not the fulfillment of prophecy - that role, in their faith, belongs to Muhammad.

And Muslims have a completely different understanding of salvation and a completely different "New Testament."

Alex

Hello Anthony,

Yes, but we must be careful. As it states, sharing in communion is possible "given suitable circumstances and the approval of church authority."

The Guidelines for Admission to the Euc...rch and the Assyrian Church of the East [vatican.va] should not be interpreted to mean an open communion between the two churches. As the Section 4 states:

I am all for unity between the Assyrian Church and the Chaldean Church and I applaud Mar Soro's work toward that goal, but I believe that his giving communion in Chaldean Catholic parishes would not be approved by the Holy See even though Chaldean Bishop Sarhad Yawsip Jammodoes allows it. I have never seen any church document that permits this. The Code of Canons for Eastern Churches prohibits concelebration of the liturgy with non-Catholic priests.

Also, I have seen pictures on Mar Soro's website of his celebrating the Holy Qurbana at a parish of the Ancient Church of the East in Chucago (Mar Odisho). Are the Assyrian Church and the Ancient Church of the East now in communion?

Thank you and God bless you,

griego

I am hardly the type to advocate ostrich emulation - little good comes from burying one's head in the sand. I am also hardly the type to advocate Polyanna amulation - little good comes from pretending everything is great and there are no problems to be seen...

Having said that, when a party looks to repair such a rupture as is currently the case in the Mar Bawai situation, I am more inclined to prayerfully wish them well that focus on these details. More to the point, we also aren't privy to what directives have been made by which hierarchs.



Possibly the Ancient CofE was simply providing hospitality for Mar Bawai and letting him use their churc building. Here in Ohio, I am aware of at least three Greek Catholic parishes, that have opened their doors to Orthodox missions in need of a place to celebrate the DL. Maybe that is what is occuring there.

Thank you ASimpleSinner and Griego Catolico,

I am confident that H.G. Mar Sarhad Jammo has thought hard regarding allowing things to proceed. I also believe that he is in line with his hierarchy. He is a very learned bishop, and I am sure that he does not take lightly the matter of allowing co-celebration.

I myself do not know much about the canon laws that go into play in this matter, which is especially more so affected by the openness of our Church to other Christian faiths in the reception of the Mysteries. On a human level, I think in the end, practicality and a sense of unity in face of a common danger may have made issues less strictly black and white in the middle east.

Somewhat lightly I will add... tenuously hoping that I am not attacked in making this statement... if the faith of a clergyman is in tune with Catholic faith, and no theological/Christological differences exist, can he be considered Catholic? I only bring this up because I think that if the reality of our separation had not existed, I could easily seeing us as being in Catholic communion already.

I know the dangers of taking things lightly, and do not mean to do so with the above statement. It is only a reflection that I would like to share and I can only pray that given our intent to enter into communion with the See of Rome, and to become a part of the Chaldean Church, that God would guide and lead all those involved, allowing His overflowing mercies to bless all with peace.

In Christ,
Anthony

Dear all,

Seems like I keep making fragmented replies on this forum. My apologies.

In regards to the question of the Ancient Church of the East... I believe that in general, the CotE has a slightly more open policy regarding allowing the reception of the Holy Mysteries.

Yet, from my point of view, the Ancient CotE seeing that our bishop, and those following him, was thrown out of communion with his brother bishops, and our hard plight, opened its doors and hearts to us.

H.G. Mar Bawai has been advocating movement to unity between the three branches of the CotE for many many years now. Unfortunately, at this moment, the only branch that earnestly seeks and works for unity between the three is the Chaldean Church.

In reviewing our Church teachings, and seeing the clear primacy attached to the See of Peter, Rome, and in honestly desiring unity within the CotE tradition, many of us who support Mar Bawai have concluded that the only way to proceed should be to seek communion with Rome and unity under the Chaldean Church and its patriarch H.E. Mar Emmanuel Delly III.

In Christ,
Anthony

As was stated earlier, the Canons and how they stretch are to be determined by Mar Yawsip and his Patriarch Mar Emmanuel III, they are way above our paygrade to be discussing.

I'm sorry to contest this, but perhaps this is just semantics. From what I have read, and heard from Muslim friends, they believe that Christ is the Messias prophecied in the Old Testament.

Actually, his affiliation was with ROCOR, not the OCA.


I don't mind at all.


Note that although wikipedia cites health reasons as the precipitant to his resignation, it was speculated at the time that his desire/intent to marry was the real reason for so doing.

Additionally, his election at age 11 was not considered out of character at the time because the patriarchate was nepotic - it historically passed from uncle to nephew. HH Eshai was elected after the untimely death of his uncle - Mar Poulos Shimun. The latter himself had succeeded on the death by assassination of his brother, Mar Benyamin, during the Assyrian Genocide.

If memory serves me correctly, Mar Eshai's father (Rab Daw'id) was the twin of Mar Poulos, but was not eligible for election because he was married and he was the last surviving male sib of that generation. The desire of retaining the hereditary or familial patriarchate was one of the significant factors in the split between the Assyrian Apostolic Catholic Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East - together with the desire to have the patriarchate return to its homeland, the retention of the "Old" Calendar, and some other matters of lesser consequence.

Many years,

Neil
Mar Poulos and

I hope that with Mar Bawai's influence, some elements that have been lost in the Chaldean Church can be restored.

Dear Michael_Thoma,

Actually, the Chaldean Church has done a very good job in researching its roots and bringing back elements that had been lost. I know that Mar Sarhad Jammo is very wise and learned in the liturgy of the CotE, and works diligently to defend and bring forth the traditions of the CotE.

There are elements already in restored or in process of being restored.

In the end, I hope that in all the changes the Church does, that God leads them, and they follow Him... whether bringing back lost elements, or adjusting to the changing needs of the flock.

In Christ,
Anthony

Anthony,

Amen!

Canons can be stretched only so far.

Case in point: While the Holy See allowed altar girls in the Roman-rite based on the interpretation of Canon 230.2, no such allowance was given for the Eastern Catholic churches. Yet, there are Eastern Catholic parishes (both Byzantine and non-Byzantine)that have them.

I know of one Eastern Catholic parish that had girls serving at the altar. The bishop permitted it, in fact he celebrated a Divine Liturgy at that parish with altar girls. The parishioners didn't like it though.

It was stopped following the election of a new bishop to that eparchy.

If Mar Soro does have permission to concelebrate at Chaldean parishes, then an official announcement by the Holy See, Patriarch Emmanuel, or Mar Yawsip would be very helpful in order to avoid any confusion among the faithful.

Brothers in Christ,

Mar Bawai Soro is my Bishop. May I share with you a few thoughts and observations?

First, I would recommend his new book, "The Church of the East, Apostolic & Orthodox" just published. It's being called "an important historical and patristic study..." by one critic.
It is perhaps the ultimate irony that he should be expelled by the ACOE synod. For over two decades he led a healing theological dialogue between the ACOE and the Roman Catholic Church. He also boldly encouraged fellow Assyrian Bishops to strictly adhere to cannon law and promoted simple reforms to aide spiritual growth.

I will not rehash his removal except to say that it was a stunning and transparent political act of unGodly behavior. The synod rid themselves of it's lone voice of spiritual conscience.

MarBawai is one of the most remarkable men I've ever met - thoughtful, intellectual, faithful, encouraging and positive. He speaks seven languages, received his phd in Rome and is beloved by the faithful in his diocese and in other parishes in Canada, Arizona, Chicago and Australia.

Most importantly he is a deeply spiritual and humble leader who lives his faith. His greatest desire is to bring all liturgical Assyrians into church unity and foster spiritual renewal which is desperately needed among Assyrians. This application to the Chaldeans may create a pathway and framework for future unity.

A brief story will explain much. A wealthy and influential Assyrian visiting San Jose for Sunday liturgy complained vigorously to Mar Bawai that there was "too much Jesus talk". He primarily wanted to celebrate his ethnic language and heritage at church. He said that's what Assyrians really come for. If he wanted to hear about so much Jesus he would have gone to a Protestant church.

Mar Bawai explained that Christ is the center and foundation of everything. He expelled the man from the cathedral for three months as not to infect the faithful with such thinking. That man helped lead a campaign to remove His Grace. Mar Bawai has been the subject of vicious, ongoing personal attacks by ACOE members and clergy, but does return their anger - he addresses issues and asks people to pray for them.

Mar Bawai has instituted greatly needed youth ministry and religious instruction which he personally leads quite often.

Your can read more at Mar Bawai.com which is a website hosted by parishioners who support His Grace.

In short he is an outstanding Bishop whom I am greatly
honored to associated with. Thank you for considering this note.
May God bless you.

Shamasha (Deacon) Thomas
Ordained 1986.