www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy The term "Orthodox"

Slava Isusu Christu! (Glory to Jesus Christ!)
Slava Na Viki! (Glory be Forever!)

All I can say is I wish I knew Greek. You guys are leaving me in the dust. I really need to sit down and learn some Greek and also to follow Father Serge's advice and learn the Old Slavonic alphabet. I'm not a dummy, but you are just leaving me behind, totally lost.

But, in all seriousness, thanks. It is making me think and learn more. To push the boundaries of what I know. And that's always a good thing. So keep it up! Make me learn more! I love to learn.

Tim

Dear Tim,

Christ is Risen!

If it will make you feel any better, you might enjoy knowing that linguistic one-upsmanship is a game at which many can play. ["You don't speak Syro-Aramaic? Didn't you go to school?"] Since no one can possibly speak every language on earth, there is no end to it!

On the other hand, languages really are important, and not just for liturgical purposes. Besides, once you start you often find that you can't stop.

Fr. Serge

Kind of hard to verify that one.

In the two Parma parishes I have belonged to, apparently the priests never got that letter.

Maybe in those parishes no one ever complained about them using the dreaded �O� word? I have no question whatsoever about the veracity of the account given by Stephanie. It does seem that those who tend Latin are seldom called to account while those to tend East towards our official books are most certainly called to account.

I can understand the history that gave a negative connotation to the term �Orthodox� among Ruthenian Catholics. It can be overcome, and the term certainly should be returned to its rightful use. It is a matter of education, example, and encouragement. Educational could be done through sermons preached by the bishops, adult education classes and literature (well prepared and chock full of quotes from many sources, including the various popes (and even get specific statement from Pope Benedict XVI). Example would be for the bishops themselves to use it, have it used at the seminary, and reprint the still-to-come complete and accurate Ruthenian recension books. Then encourage priests to use it. If some older priests have a major issue, give them a blessing to continue with �true faith�. In one or two generations the change will have been made gently and no one need be offended.

We have a string of bishops who would have reacted negatively (like waiving the red flag in front a bull) at the use of the "O" word. But inasmuch as it is going to be discussed, a time of reference, who the bishop was, where the matter was coming up, even if it was out of concern from veering from an approved text, whether there was cocern about agitation for leaving the Greek Catholic Church... There are a lot of unknowns in an alluded to letter (from an unnamed bishop to unnamed priests) that has been paraphrased.

All these things factor in, and short of reproducing the letter and asking both parties to come explain what happened to us as a third party, just throwing that one out there doesn't help.

I won't beat the matter to death, other than to say without saying such a letter isn't possible and in certain times (with certain bishops) probable, the fact remains the "o" word is used generously at the two Parma parishes I have been members of... So to be clear, it shouldn't be understood that it is banned in the metropolia.

Have any of you opened a Latin Missal recently?

I really do not think it strange at all that on pages 638-639 of the Latin Missal, the word 'orthodox' does appears in the Canon of the Mass. After all, the original Latin Mass was standardized by St. Pope Gregory the Great many centuries ago, and this Mass was indeed very "orthodox." In fact, he also penned the PreSanctified Liturgy that we Byzantine Catholics and Orthodox Christians use during Great Lent.

Here are the words taken verbatum except that I cannot provide the special character (the special ash character ae) or you might see a strange little box.

et �mnibus orthod�xis, atque cath�licae, et apost�licae f�dei cult�ribus.

and all orthodox believers and professors of the Catholic and Apostolic Faith.

I wonder if that saying is also found in the newest version of the Novus Ordo Missae?

Reference:
Juergens, Sylvester P. (1958). The New Marian Missal for Daily Mass. Los Angeles, CA: Veritas Press.

Current English translation of Eucharistic prayer I:

"We offer them for N. our Pope, for N. our Bishop, and for all who hold and teach the catholic faith that comes to us from the apostles."

"The Vatican II Sunday Missal (1974) Daughters of St. Paul, Boston. Translation of the Roman Missal, International Committee on English in the Liturgy, Inc. (1969, 1970, 1973)"

Is this one of the reasons why the conservatives or Traditionalists in the Catholic Church are saying that the reforms of the Mass as seen in the Novus Ordo have essentially done away with orthodox or right-teaching and correct-worship in the Divine Worship?

The omission of the word orthodox in that context speaks volumes.

I don't know about the experience of others, but I can say that I've been called "orthodox" and "dangerous" in the same breath. I wear it as a badge of honor and hope the Good Lord thinks the same thing when I go to give Him an account of my life and the use of His talents, grace, and blessings.

BOB

Which is probably why Rome has insisted on overseeing the newest translation a bit more tightly than that of 1974.

But let's get back to the use of the word "orthodox."

BOB

Okay, I am confused.

Is Rome mandating the word 'orthodox' or is she insisting on its total removal in the Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy as was done in the Novus Ordo Liturgy?

I gathered from reading the thread that some Byzantine Catholic bishops are opposing the word 'Orthodox' in opposition to Rome's mandate or is Rome just recommending a return to the more ancient usage and then allowing this diversity in practice by bishops?

Is Rome allowing the Byzantine Catholics to use the word "orthodox" in their Divine Liturgies?

Dear Elizabeth Maria,


Just to clarify about the Latin Rite Novus Ordo--
thanks to Pope Paul VI Rome never removed anything from the Roman Canon (EP I), though some tried, so the term appears today in the Extraordinary and Ordinary forms of the Latin Rite, same as they always have.

It was the ICEL English translation that removed the word "orthodox" in their (poor) translation.

Best regards,
Michael

Rome "allows" Byzantine Catholics to utilize "the O Word"...if it was an issue with Rome the Ukrainian Greek Catholics and I believe Melkites would not use it...unfortunately, the Byzantine Catholic Church (Metropolia of Pittsburgh) is its own worst enemy...they are the ones afraid of "the O word" not Rome...

I have a question.

Do any Roman Catholic churches use the word "Orthodox" in their liturgies?

This is really getting old.