www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Russian Orthodoxy and the Communists

Alex,

You might be correct! Still, we have received a few complaints and it is always best to clarify. The message is to always strive for accuracy!

John

Dear Sir,

To clarify and according to MrsMW, I AM correct!

Those people who complained are the ones who should be reading the Forum more carefully!

(As I've always thought whenever they complained about me . . . )

Did you take in the Super Bowl yesterday? I gave it my best shot, but then the chicken wings were delivered . . .

Alex

Since my initial question, I found this useful link...
http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/engdocuments/enart_lardastalkmp.html

...it outlines the differences between the Sergius/collaborationists and the larger part of the Orthodox Church that was persecuted by the communists.

It seems that one of darkest actions of the Orthodox was collaborating with the communists in suppressing the Greek Catholics in Eastern Europe. And, even today, they have not returned many of the properties. But, that was not an original part of the post. Of course, it took a long time for the Roman Catholic Church to return items taken from the East, so maybe justice will come in Eastern Europe also.

Yes, there are many Catholic bishops here in the U.S. who do not actively or encourage belief in the right to life (and various other Church teachings) other than what they are forced/expected to do.

In other news: dog bites man!

Alexis

This does seem to be the case. Perhaps we can do a study on this phenomenon...

Well, the Orthodox appear to be the most vulnerable for attack here.

Fairness is what is called for and the question posed here is tendentious. And if you think I'll pass up any opportunity to go after what I perceive to be RC smugness . . . well, I won't .

I stand by that, no matter how many people will/will not complain to the Administrator.

(Do you think I'm afraid of him? OK, but that is beside the point . . .

Alex

Dear mwbonline,

FYI, there is no movement in the reunified ROC to canonize Patriarch Sergius!

And the reticence of the Orthodox Church there to come out and publicly acknowledge wrong-doing is understandable, given the Church's vulnerability in that society (there is lots of anti-religious sentiment about and we need to understand that the enemies of Christ in Russia are just waiting for a reason to go after the Orthodox Church).

Alex

Dear Alexis,

So much for your Catholic bishops, eh?

Alex

They're your bishops, too, Alex...last I checked! Your bishops in the sense that you are in communion with them, as am I. I mean, I'm not directly under the jurisdiction of any bishop save one (Abp. Gregory)...and the Pope, naturally.

And I don't expect much from 90% of Catholic bishops these days. Hopefully that will be changing!

Most of the names in the running for the Archbishopric of Westminster over in the UK, for example, are known for being traditional! Fr. Aidan Nichols, Fr. Tom Finigan, a traditional-minded Scottish monk whose name escapes me at the moment, etc.

I'd say orthodox episcopacy is becoming one of the most pressing matters in British, German, French, Canadian and America Roman Catholicism...now that our Holy Father has started putting the smackdown on some other areas! I hope a real change in the episcopacy is next.

And for the record, I have never once in my entire history here at the Forum complained to the Admin about another's posts. If I have a problem, I take it directly to the source, which is generally what I think to be most charitable, at least for me.

In short, I'm not a whiny-baby and I don't try to dump my issues on someone else!

Alexis

We need to pray for all Catholic and Orthodox Bishops as they cannot escape the politics that engulfs the office.

When Dante said that the streets of hell are lined with the heads of priests and the streetlights are the bishops, he was not far from the truth. All clergy need our prayers.

When one reads Gifts of the Desert by Kyriacos C. Markides (see url below), one can see that once a monk is consecrated Bishop, his life is turned upside down and is never the same.

http://www.amazon.com/Gifts-Desert-...mp;s=books&qid=1202194292&sr=8-3

Although abortion has become a tangential issue in the thread and may, indeed, be the dominant one at this point, the above question, posed in the opening post, is the topic by which the thread is titled. And, before it becomes lost, ...

I find myself in full agreement with the remarks early on in the thread by my brother, Alex, in reply to the above, as well as the later observations by my brother, John, in the same vein.

Were there collaborators within the ROC? Indeed there were.

Were there collaborators within other Churches - Catholic - both Latin and Eastern? Indeed there were. Besides the instances of Latin clergy whom we've seen highlighted in recent years, I recollect that, a year or two ago, it was reported that Blessed Leonid dismissed a Russian GC presbyter for just such activity.

In short, terrible things are done under color of necessity in times of war, persecution, and repression. Those who involve themselves in such most often explain their actions as survival techniques, as sacrifices made for "the greater good", as something that cannot be understood by those who themselves did not undergo the sufferings or face the possibilities of retribution.

Of all those excuses, the latter are most true. We, for whom the greatest personal challenge to our ability to practice our faith has been overcoming latinization, cannot truly understand the pressures that were applied against persons who had to survive such times and the accompanying horrors.

Some who succumbed did so for base, selfish, reasons. Others did so because they were, quite simply, human - weak humans who did not have the intestinal or spiritual fortitude to stand up to the possibility of martyrdom. Others truly did believe, wrongly but without full understanding, that their responsibility to the greater body of the faithful required them to take a path of least resistence to the vested authorities.

What is our responsibility to them - all of them - particularly in the immediate aftermath of Forgiveness Vespers? I suggest that it is to forgive them to the extent that we are capable of doing so. The ultimate decision as to their spiritual and moral culpability is in Hands other than ours.

To suggest that any of the ecclesia had or exercised an institutional predeliction toward collaboration is a judgment that is unworthy of us, particularly when one considers the vast numbers of hierarchs, clergy, and faithful of all the Churches whose martyred bodies and broken minds littered the communist landscape.

Many years,

Neil

Dear Alexis,

For the record, I know you would never do that. You are a person of the highest integrity and Christian dedication and commitment.

If we had more like you, our Church would be markedly different today!

For the record, sir.

Alex