www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Actual Vatican Protocol to Patriarchs?

Today how the Patriarchs are positioned in the Vatican events? I were reading in the portuguese version of the "The Melkites at the Vatican Council II" about the struggle of His Beatitude Maximos IV to convince Vatican to give a suited position to the patriarchs, not after the cardinals.

Dear Philippe,
I think your question may be a little difficult for people to understand because "actual" has a different meaning in English. In English "actual" means "real", not "present-day" as it does in the latin languages. So people may not have understood that what you want to know is the current order of precedence of the Patriachs at the Vatican.
I hope this helps you to get an answer.

Highlander

Ohhh, thank you very much, Highlander!

Shlomo Philippe,

Here is the order of hierarchs of the Church:

Pope
Cardinal Patriarchs
Cardinal Bishops
Cardinal Priests
Cardinal Deancons
Patriarchs (both of Eastern and Latin)
Major Archbishops
Primate
Metropolitan
Archbishop
Bishops

This is based in international law.


Catholic hierarchy
� By: Jan-Olov von Wowern

1) Catholic hierarchy : the nobiliary element in the Catholic Church
by Jan-Olov von Wowern

It seems to me that some of the oldest still surviving hierarchies are those of the nobility, the Church and the military. What is perhaps not commonly known is how they correspond with each other. Below is an outline of the correspondence between the catholic hierarchy of the Holy Roman Catholic Church and that of the nobility.

Let me first say that all noblemen are dependent on a Prince or Monarch for their noble rank. Catholic priests have since time immemorial held rank equivalent to that of an (untitled) nobleman, nobile. It is from a nobiliary standpoint interesting to reflect upon the Lateran Pacts of 1929 between the Holy See and Italy. The Vatican City State is recognized as a sovereign country and the Supreme Pontiff as its Sovereign, in this capacity equal to the King of Italy. Article 21 of the "Conciliation Treaty" states that "All Cardinals shall enjoy, in Italy, the honours due to Princes of the Blood".
(For the text, see http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/treaty.htm ).

This means that the two top levels of the noble hierarchy are defined, and they correspond to equal ranks of the priesthood. The other steps follow by extrapolation in the only way possible.

Catholic Hierarchy Noble hierarchy

Pope Monarch
Cardinal Prince
Archbishop Duke/Marquis
Bishop / Aux. Bishop Count/Baron
Monsignore/Priest Noble

Of course a number of details may be argued. It should however be noted that other codification exists as well. In the Almanach de Gota, all Cardinals are listed as having the rank of Prince (http://www.almanachdegotha.com/ ). In his book "The Holy See and the International Order", that most distinguished diplomat of the Holy See H.E. Archbishop Hyginus Eugene Cardinale has devoted part of a chapter to "Armorial bearings, attire and titles of Catholic priests", and the entire book is highly recommended.

It should further be noted that the nobiliary hierarchy is usually regarded as logarithmic. The step between noble and Baron is often regarded as greater than that between Baron and Count, etc. I am not competent to judge if this is also the case with the catholic hierarchy of the Church, but it will be evident that for a number of reasons it is only possibly to make approximations when trying to bring the rank systems above in harmony with each other.

Popes have granted a number of nobiliary titles to deserving subjects during the course of the centuries. According to the Lateran Pacts of 1929, in the Concordat Art 42, "Italy shall admit the recognition of titles of nobility conferred by the Supreme Pontiff, even after 1870, and of those that shall be conferred in the future". In 1947 the Constitution of the Italian Republic abolished the use of nobiliary titles, in the sense that they are place outside the legal system of the Republic (see the excellent article by the Italian lawyer Gherardo Guelfi Camaiani at (http://www.dirittonobiliare.com/titoli.html).

Here in Sweden we have the example of the margravely family Lagergren, where Claes Lagergren was granted the title of Marquis in the year 1889 by Pope Leo XIII.

About the Author

Jan-Olov von Wowern lives in Stockholm, Sweden, and is the head of the Swedish branch of the von Wowern family, dating back to its founder who was born around 1090 and made a Marquis in 1141. He is active in European charitable and nobiliary work. Visit his page at http://www.findyournobleancestors.com and download a FREE chapter from his book.

From the Code of canons of Oriental Churchs

Canon 58: Patriarchs of Eastern Churches precede all bishops of any degree everywhere in the world, with due regard for special norms of precedence established by the Roman Pontiff.

Canon 59:
1. Patriarchs of Eastern Churches, even if some are of later times, are all equal by reason of patriarchal dignity with due
regard for the precedence of honor among them. 2. The order of
precedence among the ancient patriarchal sees of the Eastern
Churches is that in the first place comes the see of Constantinople, after that Alexandria, then Antioch and Jerusalem. 3. Among the other patriarchs of the Eastern Churches, precedence is ordered according to the antiquity of the patriarchal see. 4. Among the patriarchs of the Eastern Churches who each are of the same title but who preside over different patriarchal Churches, he has precedence who was first promoted to the patriarchal dignity.

****

Please take note that during some important celebrations related with the role of the pope as bishop of Rome (as the Mass of the new elected pope <the former 'incoronation' Mass> or the pope funeral Mass) a different order is followed, to underline the pope among the clergy of Rome. In these cases the order is:
- the seven bishops-cardinals (the dean-cardinal-bishop celebrates the pope funeral Mass)
- the Catholic Easter Patriarchs who are cardinals
- the presbyters-cardinals
- the deacon-cardinals
- the other Catholic Easter Patriarchs who are not cardinals and the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem
- the other bishops in the right order (Major Archbishops, Primates, Metropolitans, Archbishops, bishops...)

Adding the details to the current Order of Precedence in the College of Cardinals:

Order of Bishops (only 6 Latin Rite Cardinals, not 7, and the 4 Eastern Patriarchs elevated to the Cardinalate):

Dean: Cardinal Sodano (Cardinal-Bishop since 1994.01.10, Cardinal Dean since 2005.04.30)

Vice-Dean: Cardinal Etchegaray (Cardinal-Bishop since 1998.06.24, Cardinal Vice-Dean since 2005.04.30)

Other Latin Rite Cardinal-Bishops (precedence is determined by the date of promotion to the suburbicarian see):

Cardinal Gantin, Dean Emeritus, (1986.09.29);
Cardinal L�pez Trujillo (2001.11.17);
Cardinal Re (2002.10.01); and
Cardinal Arinze (2005.04.25)

Eastern-Rite Cardinal Patriarchs (Precedence is determined by the date of elevation to the Cardinalate. Eastern Patriarchs elevated to the Cardinalate always belong to the Order of Bishops of the College of Cardinals):

Cardinal Sfeir, Patriarch of the Maronites (1994.11.26);
Cardinal Daoud, Patriarch Emeritus of the Syrians (2001.02.21);
Cardinal Ghattas, Patriarch Emeritus of the Copts (2001.02.21); and
Cardinal Delly, Patriarch of the Chaldeans (2007.11.24).

Cardinals of the Order of Cardinal-Priests and Order of Cardinal-Deacons follow, led by the Cardinal Protopriest (most senior) and Cardinal Protodeacon (most senior), respectively.

Amado

SYNODUS EPISCOPORUM
BULLETIN
of the Commission for information of the
X ORDINARY GENERAL ASSEMBLY
OF THE SYNOD OF BISHOPS
30 September-27 October 2001

H.B. Gr�goire III LAHAM, B.S., Patriarch of Antioch for the Greek-Melchites, Syria

It is incorrect to include the Patriarchal Synod under the title of Episcopal Conferences. It is a completely distinct organism. The Patriarchal Synod is the supreme instance of the Eastern Church. It can legislate, elect bishops and Patriarchs, cut off those who differ.

In No. 75, a "particular honor" given to Patriarchs is mentioned. I would like to mention that this diminishes the traditional role of the Patriarch, as well as speaking about the honor and privileges of the Patriarchs in ecclesiastical documents.

It is not a question of honor, of privileges, of concessions. The patriarchal institution is a specific entity unique in Eastern ecclesiology.

With all respect due to the Petrine ministry, the Patriarchal ministry is equal to it, "servatis servandis", in Eastern ecclesiology.

Until this is taken into consideration by the Roman ecclesiology, no progress will be made in ecumenical dialogue.

Furthermore, the Patriarchal ministry is not a Roman creation, it is not the fruit of privileges, conceded or granted by Rome.

Such a concept can but ruin any possible understanding with Orthodoxy.

We claim this also for our Patriarchal Melkite Church and for all our Eastern Catholic Churches.

We have waited too long to apply the decrees of Vatican Council II and the Encyclicals and letters by the Popes, and notably by Pope John Paul II.

Because of this the good will of the Church of Rome loses credibility regarding ecumenical dialogue.

We can see the opposite occurring: the CCEO has ratified uses absolutely contrary to Eastern tradition and ecclesiology!

[00119-02.03] [in096] [Original text: French]

http://www.vatican.va/news_services..._x-ordinaria-2001/02_inglese/b10_02.html

Patriarchs do not take their order of precedence from the cardinalate. The latter has regard for their precedential status only in those instances in which they are participating in a role, capacity, or event in which they do so as cardinals and not as patriarchs.

The abiding rule is that of Canon 58 of the CCEO


As to the individual Eastern Patriarchs, the precedence is, as noted:

• (Constantinople)

• Alexandria of the Catholic Copts

• Antioch

• Antioch and All the East, Alexandria & Jerusalem, of the Melkites (by virtue of the title of Alexandria being joined to that of Antioch)

• As between the Maronite and Syriac patriarchs of Antioch, "who each are of the same title but (presiding) over different patriarchal Churches, he has precedence who was first promoted to the patriarchal dignity". Presently, that means:

• Antioch & All the East of the Maronites (1986)

• Antioch & All the East of the Syriacs(2001)

• (Jerusalem)

• precedence between the two remaining patriarchs is ordered according to the antiquity of their respective patriarchal sees

• Babylon & Ur of the Chaldees for the Chaldeans (1552)

• Cilicia of the Catholic Armenians (1737)

• patriarchs "who retain the title of a patriarchal see which they once held"

• Patriarch-Emeritus of Cilicia of the Catholic Armenians (1982)

• Patriarch-Emeritus of Antioch & All the East of the Syriacs (1994)

But, as to my brother's original question, there is probably no good answer, regretably but not surprisingly.

Many years,

Neil

Thank you for the answers!

But Neil aren't there any protocol regardind the position of the patriarchs related to the one of the cardinals?

Reading the text of Laka Ya Rabb, I remembered one I read of our Patriarch Gregorios III in respect of the Roman Curia, defending its abolishment. Does anyone have it?

I stated this before on another post: Before the Second Vatican Council, the reason for the order of precedence was that the Cardinals were strictly part of the Roman Court (i.e. attendees to the Patriarch of the West). Thus, after the Patriarch of the West entered with his court (i.e. the Cadinals), the other Patriarchs would follow suit.

Since the Second Vatican Council, the symbolism has changed somewhat. The order of precedence now seems based on the fact that all (Cardinals and Patriarchs) are part of the Papal Court.

While the new way may appear more egalitarian to some since the Patriarchs are given precedence, the old way seemed to make more sense. The order of precedence nowadays (actualmente) seems to make everyone directly under the Pope without regard to whether they are a Patriarch or not.

Since a Patriarch is, by definition, masculine, there is no possible justification for that horrid "inclusive plural". This should therefore read:

"to make everyone directly under the Pope without regard to whether he is a Patriarch or not".


Fr. Serge

LOL. I should know better, but this comes from too many years spent at the University of Pennsylvania. The movie "PCU" was supposed to be based on Penn after all...

I like this priest better with every post.

hawk, also not a fan of FRE