www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News what am I to make of this???

Dear Alex,

I am very much comforted by your posting. The press has obviously twisted the facts very much.

I am am also very interested by the comments you make about inculturation.

We need only look at the Russian towels we place around our icons. They are full of pagan symbolism which has often metamorphosised into quaint domestic details. The triangular skirts of the female figures are very much a symbol of the pagan earth godess. This has also been transformed in shaping the phylakto/haimali talismans which appear throughout the Orthodox world, but are also to be found among the Caucasusian and Turkik peoples, together with solar disks, swastikas and all manner of symbolism.

The wearing of crosses specifically of ash or juniper are also indicators of a pagan slavic past and the Old Believers rules and taboos regarding water sources are probably in the same vein.

This would make a very interesting thread on its own.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark!

And I am gratified by the blessing of your education and knowledge!

The Ukrainian Orthodox Metropolitan Ilarion Ohienko wrote an entire volume on the Pre-Christian traditions of our East Slavic peoples.

Things like Crossing oneself before drinking etc. are also of pagan provenance.

The icon corner itself is a Christianized pagan home shrine as our ancestors venerated the main, Eastern corner of their homes and had their idols arranged there.

The hearth was used for pagan family rituals and the father of the family was the main "priest" for these rituals. In pagan times, he was called . . ."Batiushka" by his family. Wait a minute, that sounds familiar!

And if we, by some twist of history, weren't Christians today, we would still be having the "Holy Suppers" as we do during the Nativity Season.

It would make for an interesting thread, wouldn't it?

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex

Yes, this sounds like that earlier thread from some time ago. It is too bad that the internet is so convenient a vehicle for distorting information. Then we are caught unawares and unwittingly pass on bad information possibly endangering someone's faith.

Mis-labeled photos can be a useful propaganda tool in the hands of anyone unscrupulous enough to stoop to that level. After all, isn't Satan the father of lies?

Dear Friend,

Yes, he's the "grand-daddy" of them all!

Alex

I am not opposed to a certain level of inculturation, as the acceptance of usages of the pagan culture, but giving them a truly christian meaning. You have listed some examples about some pre-christian elements in the Slavic Orthodox traditions, but the key here is that the christian symbols and the christian notions prevailed over the pagan ones (I don't think that many modern Orthodox Slavs remember the pagan origin of some traditions, or would ever think about their usages as pre-christian). It is not erroneous to say that the pagan cultures have fully dissapeared.
But the problem is when the pagan elements remain, and the pre-christian symbols remain, but the christian meaning was not as strong as the symbol, and was forgotten by the people. This is what usually happens when a propper cathechesis is not given. Modern examples can be found in Africa, where christianity is still young, and an inculturation without a full christianization first, can derive in syncretism (if in Latin America, the Spanish monks in 500 years were not able to fully supress paganism, it is hard for the modern missionaries to do so in Africa).

I am new to the forum, so I hesitantly post my thoughts on the above quote. Sorry for the length!

It seems to me that historically, where attempts were made to 'fully suppress paganism' the results have been loss of cultural identity through breakdown of tribal traditions that passed historical, religious, medicinal/healing, and artistic heritage from one generation to the next. Canada and the US provide sad examples of how many early settlers, missionaries included, perceived the 'dumb savages' and our histories are rife with atrocious acts inflicted on these people 'in the name of Christ.' Unfortunately, racism is still not only alive and well, but thriving in many areas. And sadly, against these same people who are now Catholic or Protestant, who do not practise their ancestral religion.

In the Catholic Church, I don't think suppression is thought of as desirable any more. Listening to Cardinal Arinze, one has the sense that the Church's position now, is that all religious traditions have value, and some of these can be honoured within the Church. 'Proper catechesis' is difficult to find, much less teach when there are language and cultural differences. And that phrase also begs the question, does 'proper catechesis' have the same meaning to a Southern Baptist or Seventh Day Adventist or Jehovah's Witness (examples only!) as it does to a Roman Catholic?

In this corner of the world, efforts are being made to reintroduce elements of native tradition that complement Christian teachings, and catechists seek out parallels in symbolism and theology.

Re: Orthodox Slavs remembering their pre-Christian traditions.. again, geographical.. in this part of Canada are great numbers of Ukrainians whose history and traditions are faithfully remembered and recounted from their pagan origins. Ditto for(for example)Scandinavian and Irish ... even though Christian, our pagan roots are deep and form a rich part of our history.

Any examinaton of historic Celtic Christianity - rather than the current New Age nonsense - will show the extent to which inculturation made the adoption of Christianity possible in Britain and Gaul.

I am extremely interested in the way the Catholic Church in Brittany has preserved its culture and local identinty, untiting aspects of the far Celtic past with a vibrant living faith. The myriads of holy wells bare witness to pre-Christain Celtic cults which were taken over by Christianty and the saints of different localities. They remain an important centre of pilgrimage and Christian worship.

Despite the obstinacy of some druids, Christianity made good ground in the Celtic lands because the teaching could be couched in a language and imagery which the Celts understood. Equally, many traditions could be christened and incorporated into Christian life and worship.

This, of course, was nothing new.

The Gospel of St John, aimed at the Greek world, uses the language and imagery of classical Greek philosophy. We need not look any further than the image of Christ as the 'Logos' - the pre-eternal Word for an example. Equally, the linguistic and philosophical style of the Greek fathers continued this inculturation.

Inculturation has also happened, to a certain extent, when groups of non-Orthodox Christians have entered Orthodox Christianity and brought the best aspects of their previous tradtition with them.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.