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What is also a factor in this is the bitter relations between the Roman Catholics and the Greek-Catholics in Ukraine. Right this minute, off the top of my head, I shall not offer a historical background or analysis, but both sides would benefit by an improvement. This could well have prompted the Holy Father's suggestion.

Fr. Serge

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My deepest apologies for any offense or frustration. The Latin in me prompts me to refer to the Roman "cardinal" and then the surname.

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I think Fr. Serge is right. Catholics should try and form a united front in Ukraine.

Benedict realizes, too, that reunion will really only take root from the ground up, not from the top down. Emphasizing a united Catholic front can, down the road, pave the way for reunion with the Orthodox without any part of the Catholic Church being left behind in Ukraine.

Alexis

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Quote
What is also a factor in this is the bitter relations between the Roman Catholics and the Greek-Catholics in Ukraine. Right this minute, off the top of my head, I shall not offer a historical background or analysis, but both sides would benefit by an improvement. This could well have prompted the Holy Father's suggestion.

Fr. Serge

Father Serge:

Father bless!!

Actually I think I understand the Holy Father's suggestion, even though I didn't have an inkling about bitter relations in Ukraine between the Latins and the UGCC. What a shame for brethren to have such relationships.

IMHO, it should be mandated everywhere in the world. Some of the comments made about other-than-Latin clergy by Latin clergy really get me going. You'd think that one's communion brethren were afflicted by some disease. mad

There are plenty of Eastern Christians of all stripes that I am privileged to know. And I would be thrilled to spend my eternity with them in the Kingdom. They don't have two heads and are sincere followers of the Lord. I learn plenty from all of them by word and example. BTW there's not a soul who posts here that I wouldn't consider it a privilege to have lunch with and kick back for a long afternoon of just being together.

In Christ,

BOB

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Emphasizing a united Catholic front can, down the road, pave the way for reunion with the Orthodox . . .

L-A:

Consider the scene from the Orthodox side. If "brothers" treat each other poorly and with bitterness, who wants into that "brotherhood"?

In Christ,

BOB

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Right, Bob! I agree!

Alexis

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To be fair.. it isn't always hugs and kisses in the Orthodox family picnic either smile

But family is family and even though we don't always get along.. no one else better mess with the brothers!

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Would some one please explain to me what the beef is between the Latin Catholics and the Greek Catholics? I am out of the loop on this but I find it disturbing.

Converted Viking

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Dear Friends,

Father Archimandrite Sergius is more familiar with the UGCC's inner goings-on than anyone! (A sequel to a famous book could be "How the Irish saved the UGCC" smile )

In one case that was referred to Patriarch Lubomyr (what an ethnic sounding name, but everyone has heard about the "hussars") there was a church that was being shared by both RC's and GC's.

The tension arose when the Greek-Catholic priests began to be nasty toward the RC's and at one point, a GC priest told the RC pastor "get your face ("morda") out of here!"

This tension is based on national, not religious, issues, although the two have never been separate there in history.

The matter was sent to His Beatitude Patriarch Lubomyr but I don't know how things were resolved - or if they can be resolved.

Also, for a Ukrainian to use the term "Catholic" over there is problematic. The qualifier "Greek-Catholic" must be used or else one comes across as "wanting to be Polish."

If we are unwilling to step outside the separation of institutions (i.e. church and culture) that we have in North America, then we won't be able to understand the problems over there.

Alex

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Dear SPDundas,

Your points are well taken, please don't misunderstand me!

As for the title "Patriarch," it is true that Rome doesn't recognize this officially. However, when Pope John Paul II was in Ukraine, His Beatitude Patriarch Lubomyr was commemorated as "Patriarch" during the Pontifical Divine Liturgy and at no time did His Holiness make any effort to wrinkle his nose at it or else to get up to tell His Beatitude to "quit it!" smile

Also, on the Vatican website, the official biography of Patriarch Joseph the Hieroconfessor does say that "his Church gave him the title of 'Patriarch'" without further consideration of what that implied.

Finally, when it comes to things like this, we UGCCers find that it is always more effective to ask for forgiveness rather than to ask for permission! smile

His Holiness is well-esteemed within the UGCC and his words to the bishops are both timely and important for them and for the whole UGCC to hear.

If that is the extent of the Pope's "interference" ( wink ) in our affairs, we should be very happy about it!

Cheers, Friend in Christ,

Alex


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Alex,

I would like to e-mail you or get in touch via PM. It seems that you have PM turned off.

Peace be with you:
Converted Viking

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Dear Viking,

As you know, St Vladimir of Kyiv was of Viking stock as were the rulers of northern Rus' - we need more of the Viking worldview and less of the romanticized one that tends to dominate the Ukrainian character!

The tensions there between RC's and GC's are about the national tensions over the last several hundred years.

Poland dominated western Ukraine and attempted to assimilate the Ukies to become Polacks. The Union of Brest was most definitely seen by many Polish circles to be an instrument of a more general Polonization effort - and this proved quite true with the onset of Latinization later on.

Polish nobility entered the Basilian Order en masse and the Jesuits reformed it to the point where it barely resembles the ideal of the rules of St Basil the Great today (they are in fact Canons Regular).

But the Greek-Catholics held on and with Metropolitan Andrew Sheptytsky at the helm of their Church, the Greek-Catholics led the way to a renaissance of Ruthenian identity that later became focused on a staunchly nationalistic movement.

Russophilism also became dominant in the UGCC at the turn of the 20th century and to this day the liturgical publications by the UGCC at Rome are characterized by a heavily Russified language (according to Met. Ilarion Ohienko of the UOCC - something he pointed out to criticize the prevailing view that the UGCC was "superior" to the Orthodox on this score).

In 1648, when the Kozak Hetman Bohdan Khmelnitsky began his campaign to liberate the Ruthenian/Ukrainian lands from Polish domination, the Poles arrested Athanasius Filipovich the Ihumen of Brest and tortured him for several days to make him become Catholic. He refused and was then shot and buried alive after digging his own grave.

It is telling of the situation that St Athanasius, an Orthodox Venerable Martyr, became a hero venerated by both EC's and Orthodox. It is also telling that St Josaphat's early cult was heavily promoted by the Polish King and everyone in Polish society down (as is also unwittingly depicted in the quotes in support of his canonization that the Basilian biography of him lists).

Just as Ukrainians in Eastern Ukraine were called "Little Russians" by the Muscovite Great Russians, so too were the Ruthenians/Ukrainians of western Ukraine called "Little Poles." The old calendar, the three-bar Cross and other such symbols took on a symbolic, cultural character that identified the Ruthenians/Ukrainians and set them apart from their RC masters (the three-bar Cross was in even wider use in the Carpathians and anywhere where the foreign RC's attempted to culturally assimilate the people than anywhere in the eastern regions).

To this day among many Ukrainians and others, the new calendar is called the "Polish calendar" etc. At the time of Met. Andrew Sheptytsky, it was a common practice for the local Polish authorities to cancel insurance policies for Orthodox churches in Volyn, near Poland, and this was done so hooligans could burn the wooden churches and the people would not be able to rebuild them. Sheptytsky twice went public in protest against this treatment of the Orthodox (and he refused to continue the shameful legal process over who owns the Pochaiv Lavra that went on for years before he became the Metropolitan).

Although the two RC and GC hierarchies are at peace in E. Europe, the tensions at the parish level continue.

My mother was brought up a Roman Catholic and when she taught my brother and me to make the Sign of the Cross, she taught us in the Latin way.

The very next day when my father saw us "waving Latin flies away with the whole hand" ( smile ) he was visibly shaken and afterwards worried about the impact that that early Latin experience would have on his two sons . . . smile

Alex




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The tensions there between RC's and GC's are about the national tensions over the last several hundred years.

How sad this is, it makes me want to weep. I attended St Nicholas
UGCC mission here in Raleigh this past Sunday and will do so again. Father Mark and his flock are a very welcoming group and made me feel right at home.

Peace be with you:
Converted Viking

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Dear Viking,

If you could contact Irish Melkite, he can put you in touch with me!

Alex

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Dear Viking,

I believe I have fixed the matter and you may PM me if you wish!

So proud of myself . . . smile

Alex

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