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Dear all;

I do not intend this to start a flamefest. I only want to ask a simple, objective answer:

Are there Orthodox prelates in Orthodox lands who are doing anything to curb anti-Catholic prejudice and hatred among Orthodox monastics and faithful?

I'm just so sickened and appalled by the utter hatred and slander that the Orthodox in Greece and Russia continue to heap on Catholics. Sometimes, I wonder if the time has come for Catholics to refuse financial help to the Orthodox Churches. There is no point in feeding mouths that continually bite one's hands. The least that the Orthodox can do is to not gratuitously slander Catholics.

I do not deny that there are Catholics who also hate the Orthodox. However, one can be sure that these Catholics will be ostracized by their fellow Catholics for their sinful hatred.

Dear Asianpilgrim,

I don't know if Catholics will be ostracized for expressing anti-Orthodox sentiment (unless one ia employed at the Vatican as an assistant to Cardinal Kasper or some such position).

There are many traditionalist circles of various brands in Catholicism that appear friendly but which are very anti-Orthodox.

And the first place that such anti-Orthodox sentiments can be found is in EC religious Orders and parishes attached to them.

From my parochial experiences in this regard, it is clear that when a parishioner insists on crossing out "Orthodox Christians" in every prayerbook in the parish, there is an anti-Orthodox sentiment at work. No one raises a voice of protest against this.

The devotional life of EC parishes that tend to be highly Latin also reflect an irrational and non-Catholic fear of the Christian East as well as an inferiority complex as Catholics who belong to another different, yet perfectly valid Catholic culture.

With respect to the Orthodox, it is a fact that the Orthodox Church sees itself as THE Church of Christ, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of OLGS Jesus Christ and that there is no other.

At the same time, historically, there have been major conflicts with RC countries, especially in E. Europe, that have left their mark not only on Orthodox attitudes toward RC's but also on EC attitudes.

I myself was brought up to have a specific aversion to Roman Catholicism and the new calendar (I still cringe a bit to learn that there are BC's who follow this calendar - socialization is socialization).

That was one way to keep the 'in-group' together in the face of a larger assimilation pull.

I don't believe that is necessarily "sinful" to hold up the larger group to some harmless ridicule ( ). I noticed that the Western Rite Orthodox do the same thing to the larger EAstern Rite Orthodox in the Antiochian Orthodox Church too!

Anyway . . .

Alex

Dear Dr. Roman;

Harmless ridicule?

"The Vatican is out to conquer Ukraine and Russia." "The pope is out to kill the Orthodox." "The Vatican is in league with the Jews to create a one world religion" etc. etc.

Sometimes, I wonder if the Athonites realize just how much they've been helped by Catholic and Anglican money. Ingratitude is a terrible sin, you know. They seem to have nothing good to say at all about those helping them, unless it be Prince Charles.

For me, it was also a great miracle that Catholics such as those of Aid to the Church in Need and the late Holy Father John Paul II continued to help the Orthodox despite all the vitriol that the Athonites and the Valaamites dumped on all Catholics. Whatever the attractions of Orthodox liturgy and music, these all pale into insignificance beside the charity of the Catholic Church. And please, stop talking about the Sack of Constantinople in 1204 and the Ustasha. It's not as if Pope Benedict XVI is the reincarnation of Ante Pavelic!

Now, if the Orthodox were to simply attack our dogmas, no problem! At least that keeps the exchange at an intellectual and theological level. But to go down to ad hominem levels and to execrate Catholics in the vilest and harshest terms is simply unChristian. And for me, it proves that Orthodoxy simply can't be true.

Anyway, can't anybody here produce ONE INSTANCE of an Orthodox hierarch in an Orthodox land (not the diaspora) speaking up in defense of Catholics or Protestants from wrongful slander?

Dear Asianpilgrim,

But you are quoting extreme elements within Orthodoxy that the majority of Orthodox would never associate themselves with, friend!

That simply isn't fair.

As for defending Catholics, I've seen MANY articles on the mainstream ROC website, www.pravoslavie.ru [pravoslavie.ru], that strongly DEFENDED His Holiness Pope Benedict against the international attacks he sustained following his statement at Regensburg University.

No Catholic website went to such lengths to defend Pope Benedict, but the ROC site did. They discussed, in detail, his biography, his many academic contributions to theology, his conversatism (for which the authors expressed admiration), and his defence of traditional values for Europe at a time when Europeans are trying to construct a Europe that is oblivious to its Christian heritage.

And this website is officially sanctioned by the Moscow Patriarchate.

There are other articles on it (and let's remember that this website is read by Orthodox and others world-wide) that attack Orthodox extremist groups that blame the Vatican for the kind of things you mention.

So this is an official website that has lots of intellectual integrity and espouses a true defence of all that is Christian, including the Pope of Rome when he is outrightly wronged.

They also have lots of articles about RC visits, interviews with Cardinal Kasper (who is apparently quite fluent in Russian) and present the results of the many Orthodox ecumenical committee meetings set up by the Moscow Patriarchate.

The Orthodox theologian Fr. Prof. John Meyendorff was very close to RC theologians and wrote very irenically about Catholic-Orthodox relations - another excellent Orthodox example in this regard.

Would you like more? And the EP often forbids Athonite monks from even coming to see him in Istanbul - because he knows in advance what they will be saying to him . . .

Alex

I remember reading a book by or about Brother Andrew... Can't remember exactly what, but I did read something which warmed my heart:- The Russian Orthodox were happy that a Bible Society was actually going out to give Bibles and it was a priest or bishop who commended Brother Andrew on his work and called on him to continue his discipleship in the spirit of the Apostle Andrew. Of course, this is what I can remember and most (if not all details) may not be entirely accurate.

Dear Collin,

Yes indeed. There are lots of points of warm contact between Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox that is often not reported about.

In fact, given the number of Western missionaries in Russia and Greece today, it is a wonder that the Orthodox are even speaking to Western Christians at all!

Alex

I'd say that's predominantly Protestant missionaries Dr Alex, and they're in Roman Catholic countries as well.

Dear Lawrence,

As they say, the two largest religious groups in North America are: Catholics and former Catholics . . .

But my in-laws, by way of one eye-witness account, saw RC missionaries working to convert Orthodox in Ukraine. And they're not even bringing them to the EC church - but to the RC church.

When asked why not, the RC priest replied, "Because that is not my tradition."

And another EC friend of mine who was in Ukraine saw how a UGCC nun, when asked to say a prayer at a Catholic and Orthodox gathering, actually distributed pamphlets that accused the Orthodox of being "schismatic" and in need of "returning" to union with Rome.

I'm not just blaming the RC's - EC's are to blame just as much.

Alex

My advice is don't let the bigots poison your mind. My very limited experience with ordinary people who are Greek and Russian is that they too would like good relations between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. That certainly is true with America Orthodox with whom I've spoken.

The problem is with the bigots who find 1204, etc., to be a convenient curse for all bad things that have happened to the Orthodox. For example: it's raining, because of 1204, it's an earthquake, because of 1204, we're poor and backwards not because our ancestors continually made war on our fellow Orthodox while the Mongols or Turks advanced but only because of 1204, etc. etc. etc. That's instead of forgiving, putting aside the past, and moving on -- as Christ commanded us.

The two big issues that bother Orthodox (that I have surmised) about ecumenism are the two extremes: people who want us to, in effect, convert to their church; or people who want us to water down our church into something that isn't Orthodox or even Christian anymore. The trick, as many posters here have observed, is finding that real happy balance between diversity and unity. But that is the Trinitarian life that we are all invited to participate in.

Just my two cents.

-- John

Asian Pilgrim,

I did read what you wrote and I am sad. I cannot say to you more than take care, brother, take care, and watch the movements of your mind and heart.

Take much care, yesterday it was the first day of the Lent in the Holy Romano-Catholic Church, and tomorrow it is the Wednesday of the Ashes. Take care and pray.

Your Orthodox brother offers to you the following two prayers:




Marian+

You begin by saying that you do not want this to turn into a flamefest--and then you offer that statement. It makes me very sad. It is time to pray.

Dear Friends,

Certainly, bigotry is not a good thing anywhere.

But after the "anything goes" mentality of my earlier Catholic upbringing, I admire the Orthodox for differentiating between what is true and what is not.

Alex

True indeed. But if I may, perhaps I may add to what Asianpilgrim says. It perhaps is not Orthodoxy per se that he refers to, but the bad attitudes they carry. Nevertheless, a few bad apples does not say so much about the tree.