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It seems odd to me that bishops of one church would need to go to the patriarch of another church to receive counsel on how to run their affairs.

My 2 cents.

I guess this begs the question, is "Rome just another patriarchate, no more no less?"

If one is prone to believe in the Catholic understanding of the bishop of Rome - regardless of title taken for him or by him - has a special role as the modern Peter, the leader of the apostles... Well a 15 minute visit (how long they last on average) with him every few years possibly including an opportunity to concelebrate Mass with him doesn't seem like such a bad thing.

Besides, a Roman Holiday every few years seems a rather nice thing. Come to think of it, I wish the Holy Father would demand I make an ad limna visit. Some Italian food sounds mighty tastey just about now!

It does not have to be viewed as a competitive or undermining situation.

I had a good laugh when, the wife of the rector of the Ukrainian Catholic Cathedral here told me that in Ukraine, Western Christmas is called "Polish Christmas". In English, of course, that has a derogatory connotation.

Speaking of Italian food, I suddenly have a craving for ossobucco.

Dear AMM,

That's because you are not in "Eucharistic Communion with Rome!"

If you were, then it wouldn't seem so odd.

And sometimes a solid, objective and outside comment from a Pope goes an awful long way with our bishops.

(You don't know our bishops? Yes, I know some of them . . . ).

In actuality, this is not the purpose of the 5-yearly ad limina visit by Bishops to Rome, which "tradition" borrows from the ad limina apostolorum of old.

My 3 cents.

Amado

Dear Byzantophile,

why is it derogatory? Is it because in stead of turkey, one gets kolbassa?

Or else the presents are wrapped the wrong way?

Or Santa Claus tries to get down the chimney and gets stuck and one has to call the fire department to get him out?

If none of the above, could you explain?

Alex (who is half-Polish, so I can say these things . . .)

Dear Amado,

What is all that you are talking about?

Before recently, I thought "ad limina" had something to do with a Roman litmus test applied to our bishops (on their tongues, perhaps) to make sure they are truly Catholic according to its standards!

Alex

I'm not saying one bishop cannot confirm the faith of another, or that one Christian can't confirm the faith of another. It is however a two way street. That is a relationship of brotherhood.

What this story appears to me to be, and appearances can be wrong, is an indication that the relationship is not one of interdependence but dependence. In other words a parent/child relationship.

4 cents.

Estimado Alex the Monarchist:

Your tongue must have been poisoned by the "other" side.

Before the Greek-Catholic Bishops of Ukraine, as a group, did their ad limina visit for the first time in 70 years, the Bishops of the Ukrainian Archeparchy of Winnepeg (and all Ukrainian Catholic Bishops in Canada) have been joining their Canadian Latin counterparts in visiting Rome.

Here's what your own UGCC Bishop David Motiuk has to say about the ad limina visit:

http://www.archeparchy.ca/news/2006/news060019.htm

Your amigo,

Amado

Dear AMM,

"a parent-child relationship"

Ah, so you do know some of our bishops!

Good!

Alex

Dear Amigo Amado,

Ah, now I understand!

"Ad liminal" visits can also connote some sort of Roman brainwashing when you least expect it ("subliminal").

No fear of that though - a number of them come already that way!

As I'm "Orthodox in communion with Rome" sometimes the ROME comes out and at other times the ORTHODOX leaps forward . . .

Guess I'm still in the latter mode.

Cheers,

Alejandro

Dear Alejandro (de los Reyes):

Rome has been working on this "submission" for the past 2 millenia!

Hasta luego!

Amado

Appearances can be decieving. If you believe (as we do) that there is an apostolic see to which a leadership role was Divinely given, and a promise of the gates of hell not prevailing... Checking in with that guy every 5 years for 15 minutes doesn't seem such a burden, chore, or problem.

Again, if you believe that. (By some accounts, I have heard UGCC bishops do believe that.)



Or have the heirs to the apostles been engaged in the most human tendancy to rebel against those in charge for all that time?

Oh dear, I seem to have stumbled freshly onto a debate that we seem to have been having for for 1000 years... Give or take a few centuries.

It begins again! (sigh...)

Maybe tomorrow we will all solve it.

Via con dios!

- el sinner simple

AHA! So the truth comes out!

Sorry to be a stickler, but it's: �Vaya con Dios!

And "The Simple Sinner" would probably be "El pecador humilde" unless someone has a better translation.

Of course I now expect help with my Ukrainian.