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Amen.

Yes, but Asianpilgrim implied they didn't fall all that far from the tree . . .

But Amen to Collin as well!

Alex

Oh the irony...

Can we all agree that if we want to say something nasty about RC's, we should just refer to them as "Latins?"

Back to work for me . . .

Alex

Talk of Catholics who hate the Orthodox, they are relatively rare, but what they lack in numbers they supply in vitriol. I was attacked by one just last week, and the combination of invincible ignorance and unreachable arrogance was one that I have seldom seen equalled! Ugh!

Some problems to keep in mind:

a) many Orthodox do not have direct access to the relevant documents of the Catholic Church herself and the relevant documents of the theological dialogue(s). That makes it easy to gain a distorted impression from bits and pieces which come floating in.

b) it is not just a question of events of eight hundred or a thousand years ago - there were unpleasant examples of serious Catholic misconduct within living memory (to give only one example, the besieged Greeks in such places as Smyrna appealed to Rome to come to their assistance after World War I. There was no answer).

c) For all of its defects, the Catholic Church is able to act decisively (at least sometimes!) if the Pope puts his pontifical foot down hard enough. Eastern Orthodoxy is often not able to do that, and working by consensus of necessity takes much more time and, therefore, patience.

Fr. Serge

Amen. You always seem to clarify things for me!

Bless, Father Serge,



Much truth in the above word. Regarding me, a simple Orthodox believer, there is a lot of non knowledge regarding the Romano-Catholic Church. My only direct interaction with the RCC is at the Catholic Cathedral from here. As I saw, the RCC community is rather a closed one, no idea why so.

Asianpilgrim's words are very far from reality and there is also very much non knowledge. Such a person should visit these lands and know directly.

Sincerely, my views are very close to the Orthodox Fathers from monasteries etc etc. I saw no hatred around. Nor vitriol.

There is much to be said, but my English does not help me, and my time and health are limited.

A blessed Lent for you all. Be healthy in the Holy Spirit!

Amin.

Marian+

Bless, Father Archimandrite,

Without getting into details, what did that character want of you?

Were you "too Orthodox" for him? Did he not like GC's?

Or was he just an English monarchist?

In that case . . .

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex

According to Patriarch Lubomyr (Husar), the various Orthodox jurisdictions and Catholics in Ukraine get along just fine. Here is a recording of his being interviewed on the subject yesterday in Rome for the Vatican Radio:

http://www.oecumene.radiovaticana.org/en1/Articolo.asp?c=184542

I.F.

"if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head."- Romans 12.20.

I'd like to thank everybody for their input, including those who said that they'll just pray for me. I'm a sinner and it's Lent for Roman Catholics, so I need prayers too.

Dr. Alexander Roman was, as usual, very informative. Thank you very much, Dr. Roman! (Must admit, I've always wondered why you're not Orthodox. I say that without any critical intent)

I'm not under the illusion that people here are reading what I've written all over ByzCath, but somebody did tell me that I seem almost schizophrenic when it comes to my attitude towards the Orthodox. One on hand, I like venerating Orthodox saints and I have no problem with Catholics becoming Orthodox. I also have great esteem for the liturgical witness and the martyric podvig of the Russian Church. Indeed, if Fr. Keleher's statement that the preferred measure of the truth of a Church is the beauty of its worship, I think the Eastern Orthodox bag the prize.

At the same time, I've always had serious problems with the apparent hatred that comes out of certain Orthodox monasteries and circles. When I wrote my OP -- which I acknowledge was too harsh, and I'm sorry for that -- I had just read some comments in a Greek Orthodox board that were simply, ugh. And over at Monachos, somebody commented that we Catholics continue to sell indulgences. Now, really....

Part of my struggle is to connect the dots between the sheer spiritual intensity of the Orthodox liturgy on one hand, and the apparent hostility that Internet denizens like me see coming out of Greece and Serbia and Russia (Now, as for the Serbians, I understand their anger... the Ustasha are simply unforgettable in the worst possible way). I simply cannot reconcile the two dimensions

Marian's advice is well taken. Despite appearances, I do dream of going one day to the East, to visit the monasteries of Zagorsk, Athos, Romania, the Thebaid, Lalibela, and to see for myself the wonders that people speak of as emanating from these.

If I have offended anybody, I am sorry. What Dr. Roman said about the ROC was truly heartening. Now, if only I'd hear something similar about the Church of Greece.. .

The beauty of the Church's worship doesn't end (or begin) with the Byzantine Rite, asianpilgrim. All the rites have different strengths and I would have a hard time choosing the aesthetical or musical beauty of one over the other, though certain expressions speak to an individual's soul moreso than the others (in my case, the traditional Roman expression seems to be the kind of worship that moves me most).

Oh...none of the above pertains to the Novus Ordo. I'm not counting fabricated liturgy in that general assessment!

Alexis

Dear Alexis,



You da man!

Alex

Dear Asianpilgrim,

First of all, I'm just "Alex." But thank you! And one doesn't need to be Orthodox in order to make a thrust at Rome or her Catholics .

Seriously, what you said in your post above has to rank among the most beautiful words ever said about Orthodox-Catholic relations.

Truly.

And perhaps it is because I grew up in an environment where one could always hear something critical being said of this or that Church that such things don't bother me. (There was only one thing that received greater critical comment from UGCCers I knew than Rome or the ROC - the "non-canonical Ukrainian Orthodox")

While on honeymoon, we were about to board a boat when I spied an Orthodox monk and went up to him to kiss his hand. When I told him, quite stupidly, that I was "Orthodox in communion with Rome" he turned on me with a vituperance that was unmeasured - something to do with "the Uniates aren't ORTHODOX, you!"

But then the tour guide came up and told the monk I belonged to the "Church of Joseph Slipyj."

At this, the monk smiled widely, said he understood and apologised to me. I still have the prayer-card icon he gave me then.

Amazing how the Greek Orthodox knew about and obviously esteemed our Patriarch Joseph!

Cheers, Esteemed Friend in Christ!

Alex

Dear JF,

But to what extent that is "for export" remains to be seen.

Patriarch Lubomyr has to deal with a lot of local scuffles where our GC priests and people just let their RC friends have it ("zabery svoyu (Polsku) mordu zvidsy" as the RC Archbishop of Lviv reported to him over the summer in one incident).

Not to mention the problems the Society of St Josaphat is giving the Patriarch.

But it is good that he is a perennial optimist! His beard is cute too!

Alex