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Pardon my ignorance

"And over at Monachos, somebody commented that we Catholics continue to sell indulgences."

Are you certain that indulgences are no longer sold by either Roman communion or Constantinopolitan communion?

Since the prerequisite for an Indulgence (or "Absolution Certificate" per Greek usage) is interior detachment from sin.. an attempt to sell or buy forgiveness would seem to objectively cancel it out.. wouldn't it?

I'm a lifelong Catholic, I've been availing of indulgences since I was a kid (after first confession and communion) and I've never had to shell out a cent for all these indulgences. Besides, how can you be charged for something that is done entirely in private? Indulgences are automatic and are given for prayers and good works. If I say the Rosary, for example, I can get a plenary indulgence. All I have to do in addition to the Rosary, is to go to confession (which costs nothing), go to communion (which also costs nothing), and pray Our Father and the Apostles' Creed for the pope's intention.

Pope Benedict XVI decreed plenary indulgences for the period Feb 2 to Feb 11 in honor of the 15Oth anniversary of the Lourdes apparitions and there is no mention of money in the decrees. Any standard Catholic prayerbook pre-1965 are full of references to indulgences and you will find NOT ONE reference to money.

Fact is, selling of indulgences is forbidden by the Catholic Church, and is a terrible sin. Ok, so some misguided preachers sold indulgences during the 16th century. Well, Trent condemned them, and all regulations on indulgences since then have condemned the selling of indulgences.

It is common practice for a parish to collect Mass stipends in exchange for offering a Mass for the repose of a soul.

Agreed - but this is a tithe NOT the selling of indulgences.It should also be remembered that no RC Priest is permitted to accept more than one tithe for any one Mass.

Michael_Thoma is right, and he mentions a requirement for a plenary (complete) indulgence that our friend asianpilgrim overlooked: one must have no attachment to any type of sin in order to receive it. Otherwise, it is a partial indulgence. Asianpilgrim is right in all the other particulars he mentions, but I think there may be a time limit, perhaps a "reasonable time," or perhaps a number of days, to within which the other pious practices must be performed along with the pious act that occasions the indulgence.

Silas

I am Catholic but I do not believe in Indulgences, whether this makes me a bad Catholic or not is up to our Lord God. I accept Baptism and Absolution through Sacramental Penance but do not go for the whole Indulgence thing.

Silas - one must have no attachment to any type of sin in order to receive it.

* * *

If you realize that sin is missing the mark .. and that we are all sinners, then few of us could fulfill the requirements for an indulgence to be granted.

If we could have no attachment to any type of sin, then we would be living saints already and would not need an indulgence.

If we could just keep our eyes on God and observe custody of our senses, then we would all be saints.

If we could pray ceaselessly as St. Paul preaches, we would be living in the Kingdom of God.

Let it be ... let it be.
Amen.

Is the notion of indulgences still dependent on the idea of the surplus merits of Christ and the saints?

Joe

Didn't you and Father Steele (whose participation is of blessed memory) already go rounds and rounds with "suprlus merits" / "treasury of merits"? I know it has been a few months... Maybe if I can find the thread I will send you a link.

Now as to the OPs question (you know the answer to that one!)



NO. And they were never sold.

Indulgences are still attached to almsgiving, which is a good and rightful thing to support.

So you must give alms to get an Indulgence? Sounds like a big ole for sale sign to me. This is just a silly practice that has absolutely no basis in Biblical Revelation. I can see how Penance can be aluded to in the Bible such as Peter's statement of love for Jesus three times on the beach to make up for his three denials. And Baptism is directly referenced, but Indulgences may be stretching it.

Oh, do the Orthodox do the Indulgence thing?

The practice of indulgences was one of the factors that cemented the Great Schism between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.

If we pray for the deceased and practice repentance and theosis in this life, then we shall all be saints.

Can you support this conclusion with some references?

Indulgences just a "Catholic problem"? Maybe not. [pravoslavie.ru]

To make an issue of this matter seems silly at best, polemic and intentionally devisive at worst. Without an official dogmatic and authoritative teaching contra-indulgences/purgatory on the part of canonical Orthodox (no ecumenical council has yet been called that addressed it!), than the heaviest stone that seems plausable or reasonable for someone to lob Romeward on this matter is to say "My personal opinion on this matter is that they over-defined..."

But sans authoritative teaching or counciliar interpretation entity, the issue seems silly to debate. Who is to say Rome is wrong? What council? Which patriarch? Which author interpreting the words of either of the former? (Don't make me bring Alex into this to bring up some embarassingly pro-Western thinking Kievan Baroque canonized Orthodox saint!)

If debate is desired, and a fruitful outcome is sincerely hoped for, trying to understand who or what has a definative teaching authority for definition seems to be the first and almost only needed debate. All the remaining ancillary pet issues are just sidestepping that issue.

Dear Friends,

I beg your indulgence!

The issue of indulgences did not figure in at all in the Schism between East and West - wasn't an issue. St Nicodemus of the Holy Mountain does mention that indulgences could be obtained from here or there at Constantinople - although it is not clear what such an "indulgence" did spiritually from the POV of Orthodoxy.

Today, if money would even be involved in obtaining an indulgence in RCism, the indulgence would be null and void. That is something that the Council of Trent laid down - I read it somewhere, but can't remember where, I think it was Trent - but it was a problem that was certainly addressed.

It seems that both the RC Church and Orthodoxy accepted that while Holy Confession reconciled a sinner, the sinner needed to perform "works of repentance."

The Roman Catholic tradition sees indulgences as something within the Church's power, granted to it by Christ through the Apostles, to cancel even this "debt of repentance," especially at the moment of death and this to bring special assurance to people reconciled to God in Confession that they are completely at peace with God.

Indulgences can be prayed for the souls of the faithful departed. As Fr. Meyendorff wrote (+memory eternal!) Orthodoxy always believed that our prayer for the dead on earth helped souls come closer to God in the afterlife etc.

The Orthodox notion of "works of repentance" as something that needed to be done even after confession is also illustrated in the lives of the New Martyrs of the Turkish Yoke. Someone who publicly denied Christ to become a Muslim needed to not only seek repentance and reception back into the Church (through Chrismation, no less), but was also encouraged to do even more than this to undo the damage their public rejection of Christ did to the Church and people. St Nicephoros of Chios was one of those who actually trained such penitents for their act of public denial of Islam for which they would be obliged to undergo the choicest torments.

This is all undefined and in discussing this one problem is, of course, that theological definition of this is less on the Orthodox side than on the RC side.

And that is either "a good thing" or not, depending on your point of view.

Alex

Ware, Timothy (now Metropolitan Kallistos Ware)
The Orthodox Church
Penguin Books, 1993.

And notice that I use the word "cemented." Both churches tried to reconcile after 1054. That was the hope at the Council of Florence.

At the Council of Florence, the Orthodox delegation was forced to accept papal powers, purgatory, and indulgences. However, St. Mark refused to accept. When the Orthodox delegation went back to Constantinople, they had to recant because the laity and monastics were aghast.