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Oh dear. I am terribly confused. I am just a simple sinner who in wayward times past killed a lot of brain cells with draft Miller Lite... That being the case could you remind me or show me where I wrote "you must give alms to get an indulgence"???

I can't remember writing that (I am getting old) and I sure hope I didn't. (1) I never said that. (2) that is just plain WRONG.

99% of indulgences are wholly unrelated to anything financial. The sacrifice of alms (in lieu of, I dunno, a comfort like cable, a case of beer or [gulp!] high speed internet access) for the benifit of somthing like (I dunno...) feeding the hungry, building a church, clothing the naked, caring for the sick, support of the religous who serve the church and pray and work so hard for us.

Real racket they have there offering indulgences for those wild things!

Inexplicably, Rome foolishly makes it known that the following have inulgences attached to them for.... FREE. No alms... no barefoot pilgramage waking accross frozen ocean...

Obtainable any time any place:
* Recitation of the Marian Rosary (or Akathyst)
* Exercise of the Way of the Cross
* Adoration of the Most Blessed Sacrament (includes simple prayer before tabernacle

and.... (this is the one that is a real kicker to Protestants, are you ready? Are you sure? Got yourself braced? A friend in the room to call the paramedics? ok, you have been warned!...)

* Reading of Sacred Scripture! (30 min a day)

Yea, if Rome was going for gold with the whole indulgence thing, she would have done well to not make the most common ones (1) FREE and (2) widely known.



Please tell me what your religious background is so that I can just point blank say, without reference of argument that it includes tenants that are "just a silly practice that has absolutely no basis in Biblical Revelation".

Actually, don't tell me. That would be just plain rude of me to do so, and I struggle with charity enough, let alone during Great Lent.

????

Good edition I am sure, the one I had for years was much older late 60s version. (Difference from later editions were interesting!!!)

But what about it, Elizabeth Maria?

+KALISTOS enjoys the much deserved reputation of being the man behind the book that gave many non-Easterners their first taste of the East. To be sure, it is a far better written work than I could ever hope to achieve!

That being the case, it is not a catechism, he is not a pope. If you are attempting to cite him as authoritative, you are going to run into problems.

Roman Catholics, Orthodox and even Jewish people believe in praying for the deceased.

Was it only the Catholics who set in stone so many hours, days, or years that would be remitted if one prayed the Hail Mary, or the Lord's Prayers?

This is what I remember of my childhood in Catholicism. So, if we prayed a spiritual Rosary for one of our deceased relatives, there were hours, days, and years attached to those prayers.

Dear Elizabeth,

Yes, Timothy Ware did say that. To what extent his own former Anglican perspective influenced his assessment of the situation is anyone's guess (I've read Orthodox who don't like what Archbishop Ware is saying about the Filioque, namely, that the more he reads about it, the less he believes it is heretical at all - and they say his former Anglicanism is somehow "clouding" his judgement.

St Mark of Ephesus was against Purgatory and the idea that the immediate afterlife is divided into categories like that. That was his main "beef" so to speak.

There is, I've been told, a fellow doing a study here on the use of indulgences in Eastern Orthodoxy, including the comments on indulgences by St Nicodemus the Hagiorite.

In addition, there are many, many locally venerated icons in Eastern Europe that are Orthodox pilgrimages, mentioned and listed by Prof. Poselianin in his work, "Bogomater" that are referred to as "Odpusty." This is a carry-over from the EC's to be sure, but what did that word (which EC's used to describe "indulgences") mean to the Orthodox and why were they used then and perhaps even now?

All unanswered questions to be sure, but which may be answered in future.

Good night, sleep tight!

Alex

No, EM. In fact it wasn't EVEN Catholics who believed that.

You were either taught poorly (a frequent enough occurence) or misunderstood (something I regularly do.) In fact the confusing "day count" attached to different indulgences (though I have NEVER seen one with hours as you mention!) is no longer found, but NEVER was a measure of "time off".

Father Benedict Groeschel explained indulgences last week on his program on EWTN. In the early church, public sinners had to do public penance before being allowed back into the church and the sacraments. For example, if you committed adultery, the church might have assigned 100 days of public penance, before allowing you back to the Eucharist.

An indulgence back then could be obtained by getting a letter from someone scheduled to die for the faith, stating that the martyr would pray for you. Thus, you would not have to do the 100 days of penance.

Simple Sinner is right that indulgences are free. During Lent, walking the Stations of The Cross is an especially appropriate way of gaining an indulgence!

-Wolfgang

I have many prayer books with years listed.

The New Marian Missal
Veritas Press
1958
with Imprimatur

p. 674 footnote for Anima Christi prayer - "300 days"
p. 676 footnote for Act of Resignation - 7 years each time
p. 676 footnote for Prayer before a Crucifix - 10 years
p. 678 footnote for "the Memorare" - 3 years
p. 678 footnote for Prayer to St. Joseph - 3 years

EM,
After Vatican II, indulgences have been classified as partial or plenary. You have to be completely detached from sin to obtain a plenary indulgence.
-Wolfgang

What are these days and years?

As a child, I was told that for each sin committed in our life, there was a time set aside, that if we did not do penance in this life, we would have to suffer in purgatory for that time. However, those indulgences gained by saying certain indulgenced prayers would wipe away that time.

I understand that.

And I have known people who would count up those days and years in hope of lessening time in purgatory for themselves, their friends, and their relatives.

However, is God an accountant?

I think it is far better to pray with charity in one's heart and trying to really put on Christ rather than be a bean counter as some people are.

EM,
I agree. If we love our family members so much and our love is a mere reflection of Divine love for us, just imagine how much God loves us!

Well a little due dillegence may be warranted - have google will travel!

See: http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/what.htm

Note on Partial Indulgences (days and years)

In the past partial indulgences were "counted" in days (e.g. 300 days) or years (e.g. 5 years). Catholics often mistakenly thought that this meant "time off of purgatory." Since there is no time in purgatory, as we understand it, it meant instead the remission of temporal punishment analogous to a certain amount of penitence as practiced in the early Church. This was a very generous standard, since the penitence required for sacramental absolution in the early centuries was arduous, indeed. However, with Pope Paul VI's 1968 revision of the Enchiridion Indulgentiarum (Collection or Handbook of Indulgences), this confusing way of counting partial indulgences was suppressed, and the evaluation of a partial indulgence left to God.

There are many prayers still circulating on prayer cards and in prayer books which have partial indulgences in days and years attached to them. However, all grants of indulgence issued prior to 1968, unless re-issued in the Enchiridion or specifically exempted by papal decree or privilege, were suppressed by Pope Paul VI. Thus, these many specific prayers with their attached indulgences, as well as the manner of measuring partial indulgences, are no longer valid. Some of them may still receive an indulgence, though, because of being re-issued in the new Enchiridion (e.g. the Anima Christi, the Prayer before a Crucifix and many other formal prayers). All other prayers previously indulgenced could, nonetheless, receive a partial indulgence under the general grants of indulgence which Pope Paul VI, and Pope John Paul II in his 1999 revision of the Enchiridion, established. These general grants establish partial indulgences for devout prayer, penitence and charity, and are a new and very generous inclusion in the Church's grants of indulgence. They have made it unnecessary to grant specific indulgences to prayers and other pious acts, as was done in the past.

On behalf of your ill-informed catechetical formators, I apologize unreservedly. If you were taught the days attached meant "time off" you were taught wrongly.

No one doubts you do!

Now if we could just make effort to understand what that means...

Dear Elizabeth Maria,

I was taught exactly the same thing and given the same understanding of indulgences. Now we are told that we misunderstood and that the Catholic church never believed or taught this. Well, I was taught this at Catholic school and it was a concept widely held and which went unchallenged in classroom or pulpit. And I also have prayer books which spell out indulgences in specific time periods of days and years. It's one thing if the Catholic Church now wishes to offer a fresh understanding of concepts like indulgences, purgatory or limbo, but another to pretend that nobody ever held or taught past understandings in an official capacity. It's unfair to now blame individuals for not challenging theological concepts when they were schoolchildren and for getting the wrong end of the stick. If we got the wrong end of the stick we got it from teachers and from priests and religious, and there is a collective and institutional responsibility here.

Brigid

Oh, those are those partial indulgences.

If we pray unceasingly without counting indulgences;
If we toil without counting the cost;
If we love without expecting love in return;
If we truly put on Christ, and live our lives to the fullest, then we really do not need to worry about indulgences, because Christ, the Lover of mankind, will save all who do His Will and obey His commands to love God and our neighbor as ourselves.