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The Blessing of the Lord!

What the gentleman wanted - so far as I could determine - was that I should adopt his entire world-view in toto. To offer one sample, he very reluctantly acknowledged that the Orthodox hierarchs are "validly" consecrated, but he clearly hates it! [Another such person is reported as having said that Our Lord Jesus Christ is indeed present in the Eucharistic Gifts consecrated by an Orthodox priest or bishop - but that Our Lord does not in fact wish to be present under such a circumstance!]

Fr. Serge

asianpilgrim:

I've read this whole thread and wish to offer a bit of advice based on my own experience--similar to Alex' experiences.

It seems to me that the people you will find in your life who must have vitriolic responses about and to others are people who are not secure in their own faith. In other words, part of their faith depends on the "us vs. them" mentality that needs to look down on others. This spiritual type cannot expand to see that the Mystery that we Christians are privileged to be part of is far more complex and wonderful than any of the theological expressions of it.

In fact, this sort of narrowness is something that ought to be condemned by all sides as the heresy of our age: the heresy of narrowness. All heresies start fromt he point of view that there is a way to simplify complex realities so that the heretic can control them. And by controlling the realities one can then extend control to individuals.

There will always be people who will hate us, whether they are Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Anglican, or Oriental Orthodox. And you'll find that at the root of this vitriol is not only the heresy of narrowness but also ignorance of the other person. It's easy to set up straw men to hate, to attack, to vilify. It's difficult to sit down to a cup of coffee with a flesh and blood human being one has never had contact with, look him straight in the eye, and tell him you hate so badly you even hate the air he breathes.

"Blessed are you when men shall revile you and persecute you and say all manner of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad for great is your reward in Heaven."

The internet is a wild and wooly place. It seems to me to be a place where one can find all manner of opinion, truth, fiction, hatred, and every other stripe of human emotion. The thing that amazes me is the attitude of people who think that the internet is the place where one will find the truth. I am amazed at the lack of critical thinking in people who tell me that. Please understand, I am not painting you with this brush. I use this statement to simply ask that you do three things: develop a thicker skin (it'll serve you well in navigating your way to the Kingdom), take what you read with a grain of salt (you may be reading what someone who's eaten a bad hoagie for lunch has written and you are seeing indigestion coming out in words), and stay away from sites that disturb your peace. There is nothing worth disturbing what Christ has given you and what you are called to share with every brother who calls himself a Christian. They spit on the Master; He has challenged you to be like Him; rejoice when others hate you.

Your brother in the Lord,

BOB

If He didn't want to be there He wouldn't come.

Some of what seems to be hatred is from fundamentalists (every church has them) and some is just plain old frustration. Catholic can have a tendency to take the high road .. a belief they are aligned with Infallibility and the one and only true Church .. and this closes their mind and ears to anyone else. And so some Orthodox experience this as a brick wall that they bang their heads against when trying to explain thier own views on theology. This brick wall comes across as arrogance to our brothers. And so in frustration - their remarks get acidic and accusative.

Orthodox are the little boy on the block which few listen to while Catholic is the bigger boy from the wealthier family which everyone pays attention to.


A father loves all his sons equally - but will spend just a bit more intimate time on the son who gets ignored by others.


There is an anti-Orthodox attitude among some Catholics also. It need not be aggressive - it is lack of respect for the the other churches, misunderstanding and no desire to understand better, and a patronizing stance.


I am just letting you know that some of what you see ... is merely indication of very human frustration.

-ray

As always Bob .. what you say is so true and a special illness of religion that all of us should be on guard not to contract. We all fall to it often (I know I do).

We all want to be angels but all we ever are - is human.

I often think to myself that the real definition of humility - is - human. Humanity itself.

The shock we get when we realize that we are not as holy as we think we are .. or have been trying to be. There is a limit to human nature which we can not rise above. There is only so much brain power and no more. There is a limit to our perceptions. There is error in memory. There is the desire for self-providence. There is the unwitting manipulation of others.

We are all prone to these.

The more I can prove others to be wrong - the more I prove myself 'right' in my own eyes. This is an endless cycle. It breeds separation and always revolves into outright hatred (If I rid the world of that which is wrong - I will be free!).

Radical Islam currently bears the banner - but in the past it has been Communism and Nazi.

We pick a group to conform to (security in conformity) and in doing so we automatically divide ourselves from others. We see our separation as a sign of our holiness and our duty is to praise our own group ... and accuse what is not our group.

Like children in grammar school - being 'in' with the in-crowd automatically means we detest what and who is not in-crowd. And we persecute others regardless of their innocents. Why? simple because it makes us feel 'right' and strong.

Humility is - humanity - which we all are - it is having and knowing that we have human limits.

It is knowing that we humans will always have these limits and always have to be on guard against these tendencies in our animal nature for as long as we have this animal nature.

Again .. thank you for your insight. It always has value.

Know thyself.
I do that which I do not want to do.

I do not know if this has all been the subject of this thread .. perhaps it deserves a thread of its own.

Peace be with you and your church Bob.
-ray

All,

I want to start by thanking everybody who has posted here--this has been a truly edifying thread and a great example of what this forum can produce.

Ray,

A big part of the current problem is that with Vatican II and the official sanctioning of ecumenism, the Catholic Church has provisionally accepted a number of ideas that don't exactly square with her traditional teaching. That works OK for people like the members of this forum, who can handle a certain amount of ambiguity, but most people cling to something that seems more solid to them--either the more traditional expressions of Catholic doctrine on the one hand, or whatever notions might be currently popular on the other. (I'm mentioning Catholics specifically here because the EOC didn't have a Vatican II, so their situation is somewhat different.)

It's hard to belong to a Church that considers itself to be the One and only True Church of Jesus Christ, and at the same time be on good terms with members of another Church that considers itself to be the One and only True Church of Jesus Christ. The natural reaction is for each to regard the other as an abomination.

Thank God we're able to do what we're doing here.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

We all say that we believe entirely what our churches teach.

Thank God the reality is that that we do not believe everything.

I am no better than my Orthodox brothers - even if my church tells me otherwise because .. 'I am Roman Catholic'.

We Catholics are also wounded by the division and misunderstandings (or whatever) between the churches.

We all have failed unity. Not just one - all.

-ray

I hate to admit ignorance, but what is all this "hatred" against Catholics that you speak of? Is it because many Orthodox, especially in Russia, want nothing to do with ecumenism and dialogue with Rome?

Today is the funeral of Metropolitan Laurus, of most blessed memory. No sane person could possibly accuse His Eminence of doctrinal relativism - quite the contrary. And anyone who knew His Eminence will gladly testify that the Metropolitan was a man of great peace, who received everyone with love and joy, giving no basis to say that he was "anti-"anybody. Memory Eternal, may Metropolitan Laurus pray for us, and by God's grace may we live to see him recognized among the sainted Hierarchs.

In contrast, one might note that the Moscow Patriarchate continues to maintain, officially, that the pseudo-Council of L'viv of 1946 was "canonical" (according to what canons?) and that the Greek-Catholic Church has, basically, no right to exist. This is not just being said by individual "fundamentalists" or the like; it is maintained by official spokesmen of the Moscow Patriarchate, who use this as a pretext for the Patriarch's continued refusal to meet the Pope and the claim that the Greek-Catholic Church has no right to act outside of Galicia. There are large numbers of Greek-Catholics in Siberia (now who sent them there, one wonders) and there are only a couple of priests to serve them despite the numbers of the faithful and the vast distances - because the Russian government refuses to give visas and work permits to Greek-Catholic clergy from outside Russia.

If this is not anti-Catholicism, then the phrase has no meaning. Unhappily, other examples could also be given.

By the holy prayers of Metropolitan Laurus, may we all find healing and reconciliation.

Fr. Serge

Wonderful points have been made by all. I've run into the anti biases on both ends also. I participate in a university Newman student group and they're an awesome group. They've visited the nearby EC church with me and they love icons. When members comment or ask me anything about EC's or Orthodoxy either the assumption is that all the differences between the West and East are simply a distortion of RC doctrine and once that's realized the East will come to their senses, or there's an unspoken but palpable tone of superiority. But I chalk it up to the ignorance Bob spoke of earlier.

On the other hand, I was on an Orthodox website and foolishly attempted to politely and respectfully tell a poster that Catholic saints are worthy of respect and veneration. Boy, I stopped after a few posts thinking these folks are unbearably hardheaded. I later read some of the posters' conversion stories and noticed that most of them had been through at least 4 and in some cases more denominations and even religions before becoming Orthodox. Then I understood them a little better and realized that for some of them their sanity hinged on Orthodoxy being the ONLY path.To admit that Catholicism may actually have positive attributes would cause them to question their spiritual path, yet again. That's sad.

I know it sounds a bit mean, but it can be true that converts, reformed drunkards, and ex-smokers can be some of the most insufferable people in the world. That's not always true, of course, but sometimes it can be. I think you are correct in stating that it comes from the need to be "right."

I appreciate everything about your post. I also belonged to a Catholic prayer/bible study group and while there were certainly exceptions, there was that "palpable tone of superiority". However, I don't think it's intended plus a lot of these people were students finally realizing that their faith should be taken seriously, so I think that tone superiority comes from a sort of "convert zeal" (although not true converts, converts in their hearts) and so this unintended attitude is understandable and I feel it is preferable to a hatred or even a complete indifference. I don't think that a devout Catholic who is aware of Orthodoxy can be responsibly indifferent to the OC. Likewise, I believe the same about Orthodox in regards to the RCC.

Over time, I think the level-headed and fair-minded search for a balance between the zeal and common sense (ie, looking at the actual heart of the believer) and be able to balance their fervent believe that the OC is the the One, true Church while respecting the reality that Catholics ARE Christians, they do not worship the Pope in place of Christ and other beliefs that were hard to let go of from their past protestant or anti-Catholic days. The latter beliefs are childish, but take time to leave.

So, I DO personally believe that it is very fair to say that to the extent we deal with bitterness (for various reasons, some more understandable than others, but in the end, not excusable for a Chrsitian to hold), Catholics tend to suffer from a superiority complex. Both are difficult to balance and take time. I do believe though that even those individuals that suffer from these antivirtues, most of them, push come to shove, will recognize that we have many important things in common, the chief of which is our belief in Christ as God and savior.

Xpy